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 "Apparently Sapphirath Has the Right to be Arrogant"-Thread 
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Actual Thread Title: The conflict of natural mechanics and clauses agreed to

I haven't seen a single Garchomp question in this forum, but the time is right to bring it up.

According to the latest stistics available (those from June), Garchomp was at 5% usage - that means that if you looked at 20 teams, one of them on average will have Garchomp. About 15 of those will fail miserably to garchomp alone, and the other 4 have a chance of beating it.

What makes Garchomp so powerful? Thre are many factors, but a massive one is its ability - Sand Veil.
The ability is so bad that on average, starmie has to fire 3-4 Ice beams to KO Garchomp.


What does sand veil do? Evasion is increased by 25% - that means that 100% accuracy moves (ice beam, flmaethrower, Psychic) will work a mere 75% of the time.

What does this mean? The ice beam that 2hkos now 3hkos, and the garchomps that are more defensively oriented, the ice beam may not even 4hko in the sandstorm. Meanwhile, the ones wearing down Garchomp are all taking beatings from various directions.


Sounds pretty cheap, right? That is, until you realise that there are about 8-10 others with this problem - okay, maybe you haven't dealt with it in a noticeable fashion. Maybe you don't even realise that its by some rules illegal. The DoubleTeam/OHKO Clause was created to deal with this problem precisely. Unfortunatey, noone really factored it in with the abilities - Sand Veil belonged to 3 or 4 pokemon when the clause was put into place - Cacturne, Sandslash, Dugtrio, Gligar. Gligar was lol, Sandslash was not really important, and Dugtrio never used it because of Arena Trap. Cacturne had a legitimate reason and it was easy enough to kill anyway.

This generation introduced new forces - Mamoswine, Garchomp, Frosslass, Glaceon, and the beloved Gliscor.

Allowing these to run unchained without limits wouldn't be total idiocy - Abomasnow isn't allowed in UU where Frosslass and Glaceon are (and it would be useless to spam hail). And noone uses hail teams in OU, so Mamoswine won't utilise it. What is present is sandstorm - the condition that almost banned T-tar to ubers, because it benefited rock types and crippled those reliant on leftovers. Noone realised though that it would benefit in more than just hurting any non-immune types or that it would benefit the rocks for SpDef. They forgot Sand Veil, and that Gliscor would forgo hyper cutter for sand veil. Most of all, noone realised it would give garchomp uber status.

To address that, I proposed a simple change, but one that would affect everything with sand veil and snow cloak - banishing those abilities.
1.) Ban the abilities to force pokemon like Gliscor and Mamoswine to use the alternate abilities
2.) Those with only Sand Veil and snow Cloak must be changed.

Easier said than done - some of the abilities make it a menace in different/worse ways. Imagine a garchomp with with Solid Rock, cutting that ice move down to only 3x power from 4x. Imagine arena Trap, Intimidate, Inner focus, Levitate, or Mold Breaker on Garchomp
That leaves the following as plausible options:
1.) Truly move it from uber by giving it Truant or Slow Start
2.) Give it something useless, like PickUp or Honey Gather
3.) Give it a fair ability

Option 3 is what I'm leaning towards, but thats just me.
Cloud Nine: Helps the opponent if sandstorm is alive, and they aren't immune. Helps you if there's something like hail.
Damp: You can't explode on Garchomp - Boo Hoo
Dry Skin: It gives it fire neutrality, but a water immunity. Laugh as you switch into Starmie and surprise them.
Early Bird: This hurts anyone thinking they can put it to sleep and beat it.
Forewarn: This may seem too overpowering, but it actually doesn't do much - if you're a garchomp counter, you are probably running in the 75 - 102 Range of attacks anyway. So a Swampert switches in and has EQ, big whoop - you don't know if it has ice beam, though.
Hustle: 50% more power, but his accuracy is dropped to 80%. Fair Trade? Maybe too overpowering.
Inner Focus: Aside from Fake Out, what can flinch a Garchomp, for real. May come in handy.
Keen Eye: It might deserve to be grouped with the useless abilities, as there are no accuracy modifiers allowed.
Limber: Might be fair - he can't be paralyzed by T-wave anyway, so yo simply prevent Body Slam from Paralyzing.
Oblivious/Cute Charm: Lol, attraction.
Rock Head/Reckless: He doesn't have recoil moves of note.
Stall: Wow, shocker - he goes last as long as he's using a move of equal or lesser priority.
Sticky Hold: This is quite menacing, as you won't be able to Knock Off his items.
Synchronzie: This is fair, I think. It'll punsish those bring him down with Paralysis, Toxic, or WoW. Keep in mind that it doesn't work with poison from toxic spikes.
Trace: Punish the ones who switch in on you.





Of course, feel free to mention others that violate the DT/OHKO Clause with their ability.


Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:13 pm
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wow thats well thought out, i'm impressed :shock: i just wish i understood any of it [[big word giving me a headache]]

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Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:27 pm
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Great post, especially how Sand Veil violates Evasion Clause. No one has ever brought that up and its ridiculous since it's better than using a DT, Minimize, etc. I think if somehow Sand Veil had the same effect as one of those moves it would not NEARLY be as bad. But i cant think of a thing to do except ban Garchomp if we go by the DT clause.


Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:17 pm
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I actually agree with you. Although I never saw Sand Veil on Garchomp as a threat (because I'm not in competitive battles yet), I always thought that ability is out of the place, as Garchomp doesn't live in the desert, but in caves. I mean, why a Pokemon who lives in caves has an ability related to the desert?

So yeah, giving Garchomp a suitable ability for cave dwellers would be nice, or at least an ability related to his biology, Dex description, etc.
I think abilities like Keen Eye, Dry Skin, Hyper Cutter, Rough Skin, Reckless and Anger Point would be suitable (as you can see, I agree with some of the abilities P-L mentioned). Shed Skin and Intimidate would suit Garchomp too, but maybe those abilities would make him stronger.


Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:35 pm
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Saw exaxtly same type of topic in another forum. But yes, I think Sand Veil is broken in metagame filled with Sandstorm.

Cloud nine could maybe work, as this works fairly to each other.
Damp is pretty strange, and wouldn't be utilized other than doubles.
Dry Skin is little opposite to Sand Veil. This altough would make maybe Garchomp playing in Ubers possible, when all ScarfOgres and their mean Spouts running around.
Early Bird is an option. I haven't yet seen, that Garchomp would be sleeped, but even one turn of sleep is fine, because it takes turn to switch something like Weavile.
Forewarn. This could be used against Weavile who bluff Ice punch when they have Shard. It have it uses.
Hustle. With Gravity way too broken.
Inner Focus. Fine, Nite has this too. It can help some times, or against FlinchHax kiss.
Keen eye. Pretty useless.
Limber. Other part of ParaHaxkiss, Fine to me.
Olivious/Cute Charm: Garchomp doesn't look atractive.
RH/Reckless: No recoil
Stall: This would probably maybe drop him to Bl, as Stall is one of negative abilities.
Synchronize: For Physic / Dark / ghost pokes only.
Trace: Again, Physic time.

For me, Hustle is way to broken in Gravity, that should be not considered. ForeWarn, Inner Focus, Limber, Cloud nine and Dry Skin would go to Discuss. Dry Skin needs maybe extra, because that would make him possibly one of the best Kyogrecounters, switching to Spout and SD up.

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Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:10 am
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How exactly would you go about changing Garchomp's nature? Or are you referring to shoddy?

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Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:03 am
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glaceon, while an awesome looking pokemon, is not the best in terms of a snow cloaker because its moveset is terrible. so his snow cloak is justified if you ask me.

I think rough skin might work. after all, it is a land SHARK dragon.

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Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:32 am
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As much as I hate evasion moves and the abilities that give it, I'd kinda disagree that Garchomp/Glaceon's ability should be changed (at least in this generation.)

I'd worry that it'll start a trend of custom pokemon that only those on shoddy, which if one poke is changed people will be requesting every poke to be altered. or it would make only owners of hack devices able to use garchomp/Glaceon competitively

You could ban garchomp from teams with sandstorm/stream and glaceon form teams with hail. They would then just become counters for the opponent if their using that set weather team. :wink:

Though for the others who have a separate ability to choose from they could use their latter ability and remain in the Hail/sand teams...


Though if I had to pick alt abilities I'd go with rough skin for garchomp and Ice body for glaceon. :lol:

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Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:55 pm
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I actually got the idea for the change by loking at AmazingAmpharos' Mod server for netbattle (remember? RSE!)


There is a way to implement mod files on servers for shodybattle. In the wifi, though, I'd need to run a controversial project again. viewtopic.php?f=27&t=22019


Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:34 pm
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MasterChef wrote:
As much as I hate evasion moves and the abilities that give it, I'd kinda disagree that Garchomp/Glaceon's ability should be changed (at least in this generation.)

I'd worry that it'll start a trend of custom pokemon that only those on shoddy, which if one poke is changed people will be requesting every poke to be altered. or it would make only owners of hack devices able to use garchomp/Glaceon competitively.

Exactly the same way I feel. Besides, I think those abilities are cool. Annoying, but cool.

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Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:01 am
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I'm sorry, I misunderstod some statistics.


New update (July's stats)
% chance that a team will contain garchomp: 49.13%
% chance that if you were able to watch a battle randmly, garchomp would be in it (either of the players, or both): 58.06%

Thats disgusting.

% chance of seeing Gengar/Gyara/Lucario/Heatran/Deoxys E (respectively): 37.83% / 30.59% / 28.23% / 25.02% / 24.63%
% chance that if you were able to watch a battle randmly, Gengar/Gyara/Lucario/Heatran/Deoxys E (respectively) would be in it (either of the players, or both): 46.91% / 39.07% / 36.4% / 32.67% / 32.22%


Think what you want about Deoxys' impact on Garchomp's usage, but Deoxys has simply led to more BULKY Garchomp spreads. It was the complaining that made Garchomp rise, but it has to stop.


Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:31 pm
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This is all exactly why I no longer battle anyone other than close friends. Those statistics are indeed foul.

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Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:54 pm
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Lets say if we moved Garchomp to Uber status, another pokemon would take its place. Garchomp has no counter which can be said for a lot of pokemon. Lucario is one example. The only true counter is Lugia as it can be classified as a Pokemon that can switch into Garchomp and pose an immediate threat which is the definition of a counter.

If you ban Sand Veil then you are banning, the pokemon from every tier, but what about banning Yache berry on Garchomp? We could always hold a tournament where Garchomp isn't allowed and see what happens. If we banned Chomp, teams would be able to counter more threats than just garchomp we usually takes about 2 team members to counter.

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Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:10 am
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Roar Of Time wrote:
Lets say if we moved Garchomp to Uber status, another pokemon would take its place. Garchomp has no counter which can be said for a lot of pokemon. Lucario is one example.

Um, dude, there's a huge difference between Lucario and Garchomp. Lucario has base 70/70/70 defenses, base 90 speed, weaknesses to three of the most common attack types in the metagame and he doesn't get an ability that throws DT clause out the window (because Sandstream is everywhere in Garchomp's tier) nor STAB on two types that, when combined, rape almost every Pokemon in the entire game short of Bronzong and Skarmory. Lucario also has fairly solid counters in Gliscor, Gyarados, Hippowdon, etc.

Meanwhile, Garchomp has only two weaknesses (and the Pokemon with Dragon attacks won't enjoy switching in on Outrage because usually only Dragon Pokemon have those moves), bulky defensive stats, an ability that is almost always enabled that gives it an auto-Double Team, the ability to Swords Dance up opposite an Ice attack via Yache Berry, and then the ability to sweep due to its unique base 102 speed that gives it the jump on a bunch of base 100 Pokemon.

I still have no idea why Garchomp has not been banned. Its usage overshadows other OU Pokemon much more than, say, Skarmbliss in previous generations ever did; and, unlike other incredibly common OU Pokemon of the past and present, you can be fully prepared to face Garchomp and still lose at least two Pokemon against it. If it were a superpowered version mascot Legendary with the ability to rip the space-time fabric, I'm sure it would have been sent to Uber automatically. Instead, people are still endlessly arguing over Garchomp because there's no precedent for banning the pseudo-legendary Dragonite archtypes.

Stupid.


Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:35 am
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Sigh......I HATE Sandveil & Snowcloak.....these 2 abilities are TOO haxy....it's so possible to miss twice in a row with Ice Beam wow. My Vote is, they should ban this abilities in competitive play, because they're no different from using Double Team or Minimize. What will happen if a Garchomp in a Sandstorm learns attract? Hmm...maybe you won't even touch it while it sets up with Swords Dance....

Lucario is on par with Garchomp. It is one of the few Pokemon capable of learning Swords Dance & Extreme Speed. With just 1 Swords Dance, Weaviles, Infernapes and Azelfs get crushed like bugs before it with the help of ever-so-common Stealth Rocks. If you teach it endure, give it a Salac Berry and teach Reversal, only Ghost types and very Few Pokemon can stop your Rampage. Teams without Ghost Types or Attack Priority Moves get destroyed completely. Weaviles with Ice Shards and Infernapes with Mach Punch, 2 of the most commonly seen attack priority users, stand no chance against this Lucario because of Extreme Speed.

Not forgetting the fact that Lucario is one of the most versatile sweepers in the game. It has a wide movepool, huge coverage, fits in with most teams and the choice to be Physical or Special or Both depending on personal preference and situations.

Garchomp is strong, but it can be defeated, it depends on how you counter it. I've countered Garchomps plenty of times without losing anything. If Garchomp is to be banned, you're saying Dragonite and Salamence need to be banned as well. They are more fearsome than Garchomp after they use 1 Dragon Dance. The only thing that makes Garchomp so "hard" to counter is Sandveil...which is the reason for this discussion. If the reason for banning Garchomp is because of situations where you miss with Ice Beams in a Sandstorm, then it's not Valid. Cos based on chances, you HIT with Ice Beam MOST of the time. Not forgetting the fact that though Sandstorm Teams are common, you don't see them all the time. 75% of people fighting a Sandstom Team won't be having problems because they miss with Ice attacks on Garchomp.
:wink:


Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:46 pm
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I have a question I'd like to throw out here,

Is evasion clause an enforced rule in any pokemon game? Like PBR has a sleep/freeze clause and a quite accurate Ubers clause (Speed Dexoys is allowed) but noting for evasion or OHKO.

If so, then on the spectrum of pokemon outside shoddy the move/ability is technically within fair-play... :? (at least within official competitions) , which shoddy should reflect, though playing w/ friends private competitions you can hold any and all the rules you want.

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Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:25 pm
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Quote:
This is all exactly why I no longer battle anyone other than close friends. Those statistics are indeed foul.


Wow. So just because someone uses a good Pokemon you won't battle them?


I also can't believe everyone is getting upset because Garchomp is good. After all this game was created for CHILDREN. A lot of you just make it so competitive. Who cares. DT Clause was just something people made up because they can't stand missing with a move. That and most of the time your Ice moves WILL hit anyways.


Banning Garchomp will only result in the rest of these Pokemon being banned.

Garchomp
Tyranitar
Gyarados
Hippowdon
Dragonite
Salamence

If banning Garchomp is only because of it's ability than Sandslash, Dugtrio, Cacturne and Gliscor should be banned also. I find it funny too that the moment a Good Pokemon has the Sandveil ability it has to be banned.

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Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:04 pm
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Pokemaniac wrote:
Quote:
This is all exactly why I no longer battle anyone other than close friends. Those statistics are indeed foul.


Wow. So just because someone uses a good Pokemon you won't battle them?


I also can't believe everyone is getting upset because Garchomp is good. After all this game was created for CHILDREN. A lot of you just make it so competitive. Who cares. DT Clause was just something people made up because they can't stand missing with a move. That and most of the time your Ice moves WILL hit anyways.


Banning Garchomp will only result in the rest of these Pokemon being banned.

Garchomp
Tyranitar
Gyarados
Hippowdon
Dragonite
Salamence

If banning Garchomp is only because of it's ability than Sandslash, Dugtrio, Cacturne and Gliscor should be banned also. I find it funny too that the moment a Good Pokemon has the Sandveil ability it has to be banned.

Wow....shut up. You didnt even read this thread, because it's been explained why Garchomp is so more cheap than other Sand Veilers/Snow Cloakers and you wouldnt have posted anything like this, unless you're just that retarded which I bet you are. Sandslash and Cacturne are UU, and Dugtrio and Gliscor have a second ability. BTW, why should your list of Pokes be banned again? Oh wait, you didnt give a reason, so STFU.

The ignorance level of your post is absoulutely appaling.


Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:19 pm
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The Battle Tower isn't an area for flaming or insults. If you have nothing related to the topic to discuss about, than I suggest you remain silent. You better watch your words ShadowTyranitar, lest you earn unwanted attention by the way you speak.

Banning a Pokemon for something that happens 25% of the time in battles against the not that common sandstorm teams is absolutely unacceptable and ridiculous. Note: "not that common" refers to the fact that not ALL teams are sandstorm teams. They are common yes, but a majority of teams aren't sandstorm teams as many of you can testify I'm sure.

Garchomps are just about as strong as Dragonites, Salamences and Tyranitars in terms of KOing abilities. All 3 of these Pokemon actually exceed Garchomp in power if they set up correctly. Garchomp ISN'T difficult to counter as long as you make sure you don't let it set up with Swords Dance and know what to do. Talking about KOing abilities, Garchomp's movepool doesn't really cover a lot either. :wink:


Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:17 am
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Pokemaniac wrote:
I also can't believe everyone is getting upset because Garchomp is good. After all this game was created for CHILDREN. A lot of you just make it so competitive. Who cares. DT Clause was just something people made up because they can't stand missing with a move. That and most of the time your Ice moves WILL hit anyways.

No, the DT clause was made because nobody feels like going through an epic five-hundred round stallfest in which nobody can land any of their attacks due to Double Team. It's also nothing but a luckwhore strategy that can turn sure wins for a better, more experienced player turn into random loses against a less experienced player who basically played the slots and crossed his or her fingers by Double Teaming.

Quote:
Banning Garchomp will only result in the rest of these Pokemon being banned.
Garchomp, Tyranitar, Gyarados, Hippowdon, Dragonite, Salamence

And your evidence for this is? Pokemon get sent to Ubers if they overcentralize the OU metagame. Garchomp, at this point, has 50% more usage than the second most used Pokemon in its tier (which, by the way, is Gengar, not anything you just randomly felt like listing) and it has very few to zero sure-fire counters due to Sand Veil and other factors. The fact that you think Hippowdon would ever be sent to Ubers is laughable.

Quote:
If banning Garchomp is only because of it's ability than Sandslash, Dugtrio, Cacturne and Gliscor should be banned also. I find it funny too that the moment a Good Pokemon has the Sandveil ability it has to be banned.

Sand Veil is just one of many problems with Garchomp. Sandslash and Cacturne don't have bulky defenses, a unique speed tier, STAB on a near-unbeatable attack combo, great Attack with the ability to Swords Dance nor decent Special Attack to kill off the few remaining who don't get destroyed by Swords Dance + Outrage/Earthquake. Dugtrio never has Sand Veil, and Gliscor is about half and half. The Pokemon who have Snow Cloak are all fragile as well (mostly because they're all part of the worst defensive typing in the game, but Froslass and Glaceon wouldn't be tanking anytime soon even if they weren't Ice-type Pokemon).

But, yes, Sand Veil is a major problem with it as well. People play with the DT clause because they don't like to lose simply due to luck. Garchomp under Sand Veil making a crucial Ice Beam miss is nothing but turning a surefire KO for the player into a KO for his or her opponent. There isn't even a never-miss Ice move to use against Garchomp in response to the good old "BAWWW JUST USE AERIAL ACE/SWIFT/ETC." argument that always pops up in Double Team discussion.

Quote:
Banning a Pokemon for something that happens 25% of the time in battles against the not that common sandstorm teams is absolutely unacceptable and ridiculous.

Uh, you're kidding, right? Hippowdon and Tyranitar are two of the most common Pokemon in the entire tier, and they certainly don't have to be part of "Sandstorm teams" to get their weather effect up. Now that Abomasnow usage has died down and Sunny Day/Rain Dance were never really used in DP OU in the first place, never-ending Sandstorms are basically all over the tier due to Sandstream.

Quote:
Talking about KOing abilities, Garchomp's movepool doesn't really cover a lot either. :wink:

Uh, yeah, okay. Want to know what resists Garchomp's STAB moves? Levitate Bronzong, Shedinja and Skarmory. Want to know what resists Swords Dance, Outrage, Earthquake and Fire Fang/Fire Blast? Nothing. So it's either getting unresisted STAB attacks on every Pokemon in the game or killing the last few stragglers with Fire attacks. "Doesn't really cover a lot" indeed.


Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:25 am
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Sapphirath wrote:
The Battle Tower isn't an area for flaming or insults. If you have nothing related to the topic to discuss about, than I suggest you remain silent. You better watch your words ShadowTyranitar, lest you earn unwanted attention by the way you speak.


Quote:
Talking about KOing abilities, Garchomp's movepool doesn't really cover a lot either. :wink:

1. Then report me or do whatever to get me banned. Two mods have posted in this thread and seemingly dont care. I did add to the thread, so you need to read too.
2. You're joking right?

Thanks Frost, for expanding on what I tried to say.


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Wow....shut up. You didnt even read this thread, because it's been explained why Garchomp is so more cheap than other Sand Veilers/Snow Cloakers and you wouldnt have posted anything like this,


Listen, I have been watching this topic since it was started by Peanut-Lover.


Quote:
Sandslash and Cacturne are UU, and Dugtrio and Gliscor have a second ability. BTW, why should your list of Pokes be banned again?


The reason why I listed was because they have the ability. REGARDLESS of what "tier" they are in. They have those ability's and always will.

Salamence
Tyranitar
Hippowdon
Dragonite
Gyarados
Garchomp

Why is it I didn't list the reason why these Pokemon should be banned? Because it should be obvious that these Pokemon all are stronger a by a few points than Garchomp. Not to mention mention the fact that 4 of the Pokemon on this list can learn Dragon Dance which I find a lot more threatening than a Swords Dance. The reason why I listed Hippowdon was because everyone here says "Sandstorm is EVERYWHERE" which it isn't by the way and usually teams are just teams rather being one giant whether team like all of you try to play it off as.


Quote:
unless you're just that retarded which I bet you are.


I love how you call me a retard when your using something little kids use for an insult.

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Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:51 pm
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Pokemaniac wrote:
Quote:
Wow....shut up. You didnt even read this thread, because it's been explained why Garchomp is so more cheap than other Sand Veilers/Snow Cloakers and you wouldnt have posted anything like this,


Listen, I have been watching this topic since it was started by Peanut-Lover.


Quote:
Sandslash and Cacturne are UU, and Dugtrio and Gliscor have a second ability. BTW, why should your list of Pokes be banned again?


The reason why I listed was because they have the ability. REGARDLESS of what "tier" they are in. They have those ability's and always will.

Salamence
Tyranitar
Hippowdon
Dragonite
Gyarados
Garchomp

Why is it I didn't list the reason why these Pokemon should be banned? Because it should be obvious that these Pokemon all are stronger a by a few points than Garchomp. Not to mention mention the fact that 4 of the Pokemon on this list can learn Dragon Dance which I find a lot more threatening than a Swords Dance. The reason why I listed Hippowdon was because everyone here says "Sandstorm is EVERYWHERE" which it isn't by the way and usually teams are just teams rather being one giant whether team like all of you try to play it off as.


Quote:
unless you're just that retarded which I bet you are.


I love how you call me a retard when your using something little kids use for an insult.
Oh boy.

1. Sandslash and Cacturne being in a tier other than the Standard means that they dont matter. They are nowhere near as powerful as Garchomp and they have counters and are easily stopped by other UU Pokes.

2. What do you mean, "stronger by a few points"? It's been explained why none of those Pokemon are as cheap as Chomp. All of them have dependable counters while Garchomp doesnt, for one. And Hippowdon is cheap because of Sandstorm? LOLOLOLOLOL, then why didn't you list Abomasnow?

3. That's not an insult at all, it's the truth. You are clearly retarded because you lack the ability to read and comprehend and it looks like this will never get through your head. Read Frost's post, read Peanut Lover's post. Again and again and again, until you understand why you fail at this argument. Until then, shut up.


Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:01 pm
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Gym Leader
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Quote:
Insert Quote Here

Insert counter-point and/or insult here.

We can do without the little babble-fests, thank you.


Frost's posts make more sense than anything I've read in Battle Tower to date.

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Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:20 pm
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Pokemon Ranger
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Frost wrote:

Quote:
Banning a Pokemon for something that happens 25% of the time in battles against the not that common sandstorm teams is absolutely unacceptable and ridiculous.

Uh, you're kidding, right? Hippowdon and Tyranitar are two of the most common Pokemon in the entire tier, and they certainly don't have to be part of "Sandstorm teams" to get their weather effect up. Now that Abomasnow usage has died down and Sunny Day/Rain Dance were never really used in DP OU in the first place, never-ending Sandstorms are basically all over the tier due to Sandstream.

Hmmm...I don't remember seeing that many Tyranitars and Hippowdons in Shoddy. And, any team that sets up Sandstorm permanently IS considered a Sandstorm team. Based on Shoddy, Hippowdon's usage has rarely if not never reached top 10, usually lagging behind the 30 top usages. Not forgetting the fact that most people don't use Pokemon who get damaged by Sandstorms in their team when they have a Tyranitar/Hippowdon, which really limits the kind of Pokemon they use. It's equaled out in a sense, less variety in your team for Damage over Time. They may have a fearsome Pokemon, but they also have common weaknesses.

Quote:
Talking about KOing abilities, Garchomp's movepool doesn't really cover a lot either. :wink:

Uh, yeah, okay. Want to know what resists Garchomp's STAB moves? Levitate Bronzong, Shedinja and Skarmory. Want to know what resists Swords Dance, Outrage, Earthquake and Fire Fang/Fire Blast? Nothing. So it's either getting unresisted STAB attacks on every Pokemon in the game or killing the last few stragglers with Fire attacks. "Doesn't really cover a lot" indeed.[/color]


Hmm...you haven't realised have you, Bronzong and Skarmory are extremely commonly used Pokemon, and are also counters for Garchomp. Stabbed moves sure don't do as much as most super effective attacks. That you have to admit. That is one big reason why Garchomp can be countered before it causes too much damgae and is also one of the reasons why we should not ban Garchomp. It DOESN'T perform 1HKOs that often to centralize the metagame because it relies more on STAB then Type Coverage. :)

Oh, and how can I forget, the one thing all of you left out. Garchomp is scary blablabla...excuse me, don't you have one yourself? Garchomp is that Overused right? So many people have it. And, Sandstorm affects both the opponent and you. If you have a Garchomp and the opponent has Sandstorm set up for his or her Garchomp, Don't you think it's pretty much equal?

And, you still haven't been able to counter my argument about why a Pokemon should be banned just because of something that happens least of the time.

You have also done nothing to dent arguments about having to banning the rest of the pseudo-legendaries just because you wanna ban Garchomp. You have done nothing to counter the argument that Garchomp is no stronger than the rest of the pseudo-legendaries. I repeat, having Sandveil DOES NOT make it stronger than the rest of the Pseudo-legendaries 75% of the time. That alone is more than enough to NOT Ban Garchomp.

:wink:


Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:22 am
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