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Pokemon Master
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Sand Attack shouldnt, and probably wont, ever be banned, since it lowers accuracy, not raise evasion.

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Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:30 pm
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Brightpowder is usually banned (but not always) because it makes things come down to luck most of the time. Quick Claw is sometimes banned for the same reason. And Double Team is banned just as much as Minimize is. Sand-Attack isn't banned because you can switch out of it, and Lock-On is generally a waste of a move unless you're running some weird Zap Cannon set.

Smogon has tried to make a system that is as fair as possible, and puts much more emphasis on a player's skill than acts of random chance. Crits and side effects of attacks do happen, but those are usually just perks and they don't form the whole core behind a set idea - unless it's something like Super Luck Absol. Face it, it's no fun when you get haxxed. Thus, we've tried to make a system where hax play into it as little as we can.

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Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:02 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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Yeh, thanks, makes a lot of sense :) But most of my pokemon have an element of luck involved, such as my Yanmega with brightpowder, it's EV trained for speed and knows double team, so half the time my enemies first move misses and my pokemon becomes virtually untouchable, but because of it's low defense and sp. def, it gets wrecked without a fight the other half of the time. Me and my older brother both have a pokemon with lock-on (and ironically zap cannon) in the event we get caught fighting the other persons "evasion" based Pokemon. I can see the justification in banning it, but determining the risk/pay-out ratio should be up to the trainer, right? I mean, I would never leave a big tourney up to chance with my yanmega, I'd go with my super luck honchrow or one of my other really good pokes ya know?

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Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:40 pm
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Leaving a match up to luck can be fun at times, but at the same time it's very very frustrating for the person on the other end. (Have you ever been in the Battle Frontier against a Pokemon that uses Double Team 6 times, and then proceeds to just WRECK you? It's no fun when everything you do misses.) And even Crit-Hax can be immensely frustrating - just think about it, your 3 Calm Minds ruined by a lucky crit. Nice knowing you, Latias.

This is why we try to develop a system that doesn't involve luck and/or hax too much - rather it emphasizes a player's skill and team-building choices. I mean in casual play, it's totally fine to have "house rules" and such, but if you're talking about a wide-scale standardization, you want to have something everyone can enjoy.

By the way, Yanmega with Speed Boost + Protect is totally viable, as is Eelektross with Coil + Zap Cannon. They're both fun set ideas, you should try them. After a Speed Boost or 2, Yanmega won't need DT, and Coils make Zap Cannon an actually reliable move. (I usually prefer Thunder over Zap Cannon on the Eel, because then I only need to set up 1 Coil and not 2.)

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Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:18 pm
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Yeh, that makes a lot of sense, thanks, I generally only have one luck based pokemon in my team at a time, I try to have each pokemon use a COMPLETELY different strategy than the last, it makes things super unpredictable. Are moves like perish song or destiny bond banned?

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Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:55 pm
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Neither Perish Song nor Destiny Bond are banned; it is possible to build legitimate working strategies around them. They aren't luck-based, really.

Last time I checked, the only moves that were actually banned (excluding the controversial Chatter and Sky Drop) are Double Team, Minimize, Guillotine, Horn Drill, Fissure, and Sheer Cold. In VGC (flat battle) rules, the move Dark Void is banned as well. (Darkrai is normally banned anyway, but don't forget Smeargle.)

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Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:11 pm
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Really? I've always thought those move were useless to use and just there to bug you

(100 posts yaaayy!)

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Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:06 pm
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With the exception of the latter, yes. Those moves will piss at least one person off. The OHKOs have the potential to give the user those "Haha! Yes! Victory is- *Misses* Wait, what? FFFFUUUUU***************!!!!!!!!!!" moments. The first ones, well, they can go... Throw themselves off of a cliff for all I care.

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Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:33 pm
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I'd like to see how I can make those moves work tho, it'd be fun to watch people squirm. Would mean look and perish song in a triple battle be really annoying? OH EPIPHANY! You could use perish song as a decoy to force your opponent to switch out his guys, it'd put you a turn ahead, maybe? but I get off topic... but I'm still interested.... maybe ill open a new thread. or ask somewhere else.

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Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:55 am
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ulquiorra wrote:
I'd like to see how I can make those moves work tho, it'd be fun to watch people squirm. Would mean look and perish song in a triple battle be really annoying? OH EPIPHANY! You could use perish song as a decoy to force your opponent to switch out his guys, it'd put you a turn ahead, maybe? but I get off topic... but I'm still interested.... maybe ill open a new thread. or ask somewhere else.


Forcing an opponent to switch removes their stat boosts (similar to Roar, Haze, Whirlwind, etc). It is quite useful, yes.

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Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:27 am
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So should we update this?

Add Sleep/Species clause?
Ban Soul Dew?
Add Sand Veil/Snow cloak ban? (And remove Garchomp)
Allow Sand force/Mold Breaker Excadrill?
Ban Deoxys-S, Thundrus-I(Prankster), Tornadus-T, Genesect, Kyurem-W?
Loosen Drizzle+Swift swim to 1 Swim user per team?

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Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:22 am
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We definitely need some updating. I agree with the above, however I'd like to reconsider the tier for Kyurem-B and Deoxys-S. Personally, I don't feel very well with their current tiersl

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Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:11 am
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Why are the 1 Hit-KO moves banned?
They aren't so great and op, with this horrible accuracy, unless you use {articuno} Mind Reader + Sheer Cold.

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Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:54 pm
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GhostPony750 wrote:
Why are the 1 Hit-KO moves banned?
They aren't so great and op, with this horrible accuracy, unless you use {articuno} Mind Reader + Sheer Cold.


It makes battles heavily luck based, as one can just spam the moves and remove a fair few pokes without effort, Luck is a large part of battling but the risk/payoff on OHKO moves is just completely unbalanced.

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Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:07 pm
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MasonTheChef wrote:
GhostPony750 wrote:
Why are the 1 Hit-KO moves banned?
They aren't so great and op, with this horrible accuracy, unless you use {articuno} Mind Reader + Sheer Cold.


It makes battles heavily luck based, as one can just spam the moves and remove a fair few pokes without effort, Luck is a large part of battling but the risk/payoff on OHKO moves is just completely unbalanced.

Oh yes, I understand.
~I had a Lapras who barely never missed his Sheer Cold. Maybe it's luck, but he was powerful. ;)

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Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:43 pm
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Was this in-game with a much overleveled Lapras? The 30% is only when they're equal level. otherwise the formula is (user's level - target's level + 30)% ignoring all acc and evasion mods.

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Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:50 pm
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MasonTheChef wrote:
Was this in-game with a much overleveled Lapras? The 30% is only when they're equal level. otherwise the formula is (user's level - target's level + 30)% ignoring all acc and evasion mods.

Yes, and when I was competiting against my friends.

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Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:27 pm
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Deoxys-D just became Uber. What will we do?

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Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:40 am
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We shall laugh and accept that it finally is getting the recognition it deserves!

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Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:33 am
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ChillBill wrote:
Deoxys-D just became Uber. What will we do?



We should switch to PO's Banlist and wait for them to vote on it in four months....

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Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:27 pm
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Solution: Use {shuckle} and {wobbuffet} instead.

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Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:29 pm
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GhostPony750 wrote:
Solution: Use {shuckle} and {wobbuffet} instead.


Neither of them can set Hazards and screens like Deoxys can.

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Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:32 pm
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The fact that Deoxys got banned with 60% is annoying. Wasn't the original percentage at about 65%?
We can begin following PO, that's an idea. However, we still have open issues with previous bans. Is EP able to update our list with them?

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Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:48 am
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I'm glad Double Team is banned. Isn't it annoying when you're battling a trainer and it keeps using that attack and you keep failing?

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Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:55 am
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Deoxys-D and possibly Landorus-I need to be added to the list.

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Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:46 am
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