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 I HATE SMOGON!!! 
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Dragon Tamer
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Well, they've finally done it. Salamence is now an uber and no longer a suspect. Thoughts?

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Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:36 pm
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Pokemon Master
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It is just Smogon doing what Smogon does best tinkering with the tier system. Honestly I could care less seeing how I never even once used a Salamence on a competitive team. Still lets not get another "bawww" thing going on here on the scale of Garchump. Smogon is just trying to balance out the tier system and they bump a Pokemon up to the Uber category when they feel a Pokemon is overcentralizing the metagame. Seriously when Garchump was bumped it was almost on every single team, which the same can be said of Latias and Salamence. Its just another silly little pseudo legendary, and as in the case of Garchump's bump it has given Flygon a chance to shine, I feel this will give another Dragon/Flying type a chance to shine just like Flygon and that Pokemon is the more unappreciated Dragonite. Still Salamence was quite predictable, either running one of two sets a MixMence or DDMence with the only variations of it whether it was bulky or not, so therefore shouldn't have been to big of a problem. Think of it also in this way it will bring fresh Pokemon into the central metagame so its not going to be all bad. Then again its just a silly little tier system play with your own personal preferences and the VGC has shown they will allow Ubers, case and point being the past ones that were held, so don't let this seriously affect your battling as I have seen people still use Latias on YouTube. All in all I think this will be a good thing for the game not only does it make the little kids who love Salamence to end have to use something else it gives a chance for one of my favorite Pokemon to shine, which is obviously Dragonite, it will hopefully bring in some new Pokemon in from the lower tiers into either the BL or OU tier. I do see a boost in Shaymin usage out of this too. Then again I don't really care about Salamence or how Smogon regulates the tiers, I play with my friends and screw the tier system.

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Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:58 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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I agree. Me and my friends use Lati@s and Chompy against each other all the time. I like Dragonite myself and think it will definitely get a lot more popularity. The only thing I don't like about Dragonite is the speed, as 80 isn't all that high, (but with a dragon dance or two under his belt this isn't such a big problem) and the ability, which isn't as useful as Intimidate. On the upside, Dragonite does have more bulk than Mence, and Extremespeed to deal with pokemon such as Weavile and Mamoswine who try to revenge kill Dragon types with Ice Shard, a move that would always either kill or force out Salamence.

The bottom line is, there are other pokemon to use as a replacement for Salamence. Its not like they banned Tyranitar or Heatran.

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Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:45 pm
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Ace Trainer
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i thought we used the psypoke tier list on this site, no?

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Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:56 pm
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Pokemon Master
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99.99% of Pokemon sites use the standard Smogon tier system as their basis. We don't have our own personal tier system that would just be silly.

As for Dragonite's speed, a Choice Scarf would be handy on him to remedy the speed problem but at the cost of it being only a revenge killer. Maybe just maybe out of all this Yanmega might return to the OU, I'm not counting on that though.

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Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:03 pm
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i thought we did have one its the same to smogons bar garchomp [and now salamence] from OU to UBER

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Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:10 pm
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Pokemon Master
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MUNCHLAX :) wrote:

i thought we did have one its the same to smogons bar garchomp [and now salamence] from OU to UBER


It's hasn't been updated since January.


I lol'd at hearing this, mence does seems a bit more worthwhile than lati@s being banned. I still make my teams to work against both Battle tower rules and smogon rules so it won't effect me much. Kingdra FTW

I'm still waiting to Jirachi and NP Celebii to be banned. >.>



So another question: With B/W's 6v6 Random Wi-fi, assuming they enforce at least battle tower tier list and basic clauses, will it kill smogon's metagame authority?

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Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:25 pm
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MasterChef wrote:
MUNCHLAX :) wrote:

i thought we did have one its the same to smogons bar garchomp [and now salamence] from OU to UBER


It's hasn't been updated since January.


I lol'd at hearing this, mence does seems a bit more worthwhile than lati@s being banned. I still make my teams to work against both Battle tower rules and smogon rules so it won't effect me much. Kingdra FTW

I'm still waiting to Jirachi and NP Celebii to be banned. >.>



So another question: With B/W's 6v6 Random Wi-fi, assuming they enforce at least battle tower tier list and basic clauses, will it kill smogon's metagame authority?

^ On the last part, I doubt it. Mainly for the reason that 99% of all good battlers use Shoddy primarily, and Shoddy is affiliated with Smogon.

On the main thread, Mence honestly deserved to be banned, under both offensive and support characteristics, imo.


Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:51 pm
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Pokemon Master
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I'm sure people will still battle online, but it has been usual for a new emulator to be built each gen and it took shoddy quite a while to match up to D/P's game mechanics. I'm just wondering if they'll be a migration to an already completed non-computer server for gen V if it gives everything the emu can give. (other than always perfect IVs) The problem there for smogon is without control of the server they can't control the community to new standards as easily.

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Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:17 pm
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MasterChef wrote:
I'm sure people will still battle online, but it has been usual for a new emulator to be built each gen and it took shoddy quite a while to match up to D/P's game mechanics. I'm just wondering if they'll be a migration to an already completed non-computer server for gen V if it gives everything the emu can give. (other than always perfect IVs) The problem there for smogon is without control of the server they can't control the community to new standards as easily.

Well, despite not controlling the tiering if someone not affiliated with Smogon decides to make a gen 5 battle simulator before they do, the Smogon tiers will undoubtably still be the best. This is simply because of one undeniable fact: Smogon has far better battlers than other competitive Pokemon sites do. Sure, there are a number of people who aren't great at battling on Smogon, but people like Panamaxis, Imperfectluck, Twist Of Fate, and Phillip are easily better than the average -- or even the extremely good -- competitive battler on pretty much every other site. I trust these battlers to make good decisions on tiering, because, to put it simply, they know far more about this game than other players. For example, I see many people saying "blah blah blah, I had no trouble with Mence, who was easily taken down by Ice attacks. It shouldn't be banned!11!!!!!" and stuff similar to that. These battlers that I mentioned? They consider what will be better for the metagame, and in general, better for competitive battling, not just their opinion on whether or not they can beat Salamence easily.


Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:03 pm
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I've got nothing against smogon's tiering, I'm more wondering about Gen V's wifi battling if it outpaces emus. If you got the thousands of completive battlers on there how will a community as smogon enforce a uber ban with the million(s) of total players. Of course this assumes that nintendo is smart enough to add basic rules to the wi-fi, otherwise the competitive players will just join up on emus.

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Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:16 pm
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Another question is why wold they bump it up to an Uber this close to Gen V when the people at Smogon have no isldea how Gen V will change the metagam. It's ridiculous the new moves and Pokemon are bound to change it in leaps and bounds just as Gen IV did and keep Salamence in check or even bump it down a tier.

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Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:15 pm
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I would love it, if smogon lost their say.


Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:19 pm
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Pokemon Master
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shinashu taji wrote:
Another question is why wold they bump it up to an Uber this close to Gen V when the people at Smogon have no isldea how Gen V will change the metagam. It's ridiculous the new moves and Pokemon are bound to change it in leaps and bounds just as Gen IV did and keep Salamence in check or even bump it down a tier.



By the looks of it they'll make gen V a completely new list separate from gen IV. It may very well be in OU in B/W.

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Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:35 am
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Dragon Tamer
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MasterChef wrote:

By the looks of it they'll make gen V a completely new list separate from gen IV. It may very well be in OU in B/W.



Hopefully, Salamence won't get any ridiculous new moves or perks (i.e. draco meteor, 120 bp outrage) so that he'll get sent back to ou.

And by the way, Psypoke's "tier list" hasn't been updated since January and it still has Latias and Mence as OU.

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Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:03 am
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MasterChef wrote:
The problem there for smogon is without control of the server they can't control the community to new standards as easily.

I don't see Smogon as trying to control the tier system, but rather as a community that researches the competitive metagames. Their tiers are respected as real world companies might view papers from MIT. Players will use, or not use, Smogon tiers as they see fit. But the Smogon community will use their tiers, not to influence others, but because it is the "cutting edge" in the metagames research.

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Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:05 pm
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I don't care so much about salamence, I over all hate smogon. It sucks, is stupid, and gives bad tips on pokemon.

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Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:22 pm
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I hate Smogon because they are banning pokemon under authority that they gave themselves.
If Nintendo did not want certain pokemon being in the game than they wouldn't have been made! I don't see Nintendo coming out and saying, "Hey Smogon, you guys should just ban all the pokemon that you think should not be in the game."

It's wrong, I refuse to have a website of self elected bureaucrats tell me how to play my game.
I want to play my Drizzle Politoed with my Swift Swim Gorebyss, and you know what, they have no right to tell me that I can't do that.

If Smogon just wants to ban all the powerful and fun to play pokemon, then what is left? Pokemon that people don't care about. Suddenly, pokemon isn't fun because you can't play it the way you want to because Smogon wants to ban them all.

Well I'm just going to keep playing the way I want to, and I will play online using drizzle and swift swim, meanwhile all they will do is cry about how unfair it is because they banned it instead of trying to find something to defeat it.

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Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:15 pm
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Please stop necromancing, this thread is about a year old!

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Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:00 am
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Pokemon Master
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Sorry for your hatred of them, and there's nothing wrong with playing how you like. But if you want to find battles online outside random matchup you'll likely have to follow Smogon or PO's rules (Psypoke's rules are the same as Smogon's but with non-SB Blaziken allowed)

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Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:28 pm
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