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 Features Generation V Black and White SHOULD have 
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Pokemon Ranger
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labarith wrote:
Are you REALLY going to tell me that this move, at 5pp, is UNDER powered? I mean, REALLY? And are you REALLY going to tell me you prefer the flavor of one pokemon consuming the other (but clearly not mechanically) to this flavor?

What the-
Dude, calm down. Jesus.

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Wed May 26, 2010 7:32 am
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Phew, wasn't expecting to get much of a response from that suggestion actually :)

Yes, I put the whole digestion thing out there so that it would sorta skirt the edge of what is acceptable in Pokemon. The thing is, Pokemon already do some pretty nasty things to each other; burn, poison, paralysis. (Honestly, the concept of attacking a sleeping enemy always came off as kinda harse to me, lol.) {Gulpin} and {Swalot} get the move Gastro Acid as well as a plethora of other similar themed moves to imply that it's abilities to digest and consume things is an acceptable element of combat. But yea, I agree that I'm kinda pushing it and that was part of the fun of suggesting it. My idea for CONSUME is to keep it on the cartoony side in that they always escape, but they might still faint in the process.

As for being overpowered, at 10% per turn with a 1-6 turn limit the most damage you can do is 60% unless you expended extra turns in advance to burn / poison the target. Probability being as it is, you won't do nearly that much on average. Additionally, it isn't like sleep where you have to just sit back and take it (or expend an item) since it lets the opponent swap to another Pokemon and start attacking you again. During this time you are hobbled by the speed reduction and aren't allowed to swap out even if you get put at a type disadvantage so the opponent can actually reduce the cycles on this move by their own hand.

The idea of including {wailord} both amuses and scares the hell out of me though since by my original rule, his huge size would let him swallow just about anything. I originally designed the accuracy rating thinking something stretchy like a snake but I can't imagine a whale eating something larger than itself. (100% accuracy at same size scaled to 0% accuracy for double sized opponents).

As far as other banish-type moves, it would be an interesting mechanic but in honesty I think this is the most unlikely aspect of moves like this. Plus, I can certainly appreciate the annoyance of having a move like this used against you, especially if you are like me and train a single Pokemon up to power through the game. If I knew a gym leader had this move I'd probably try to ether one-shot it or put out a different Pokemon as a sacrifice and then pound it down.


Wed May 26, 2010 9:06 am
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Ajit wrote:
Oh by the way I'm assuming Black and White's battle sequences are going to feature non-stop weather effects i.e. if it is raining, it won't just show a little rain animation in between moves and say "its still raining!' Its gonna just rain throughout.

Yeah.

Think about that one.

I'm liking it myself ;)


If the continuous animation replaces the damn repeditive status text of "oh, and by the way it's still raining" then I'm all for this.


Wed May 26, 2010 10:39 am
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you couldn't have edited..???
as a feature i would personally like to see make a return, is the secret bases (above ground like in hoenn). i liked how mixing records allowed those to give you someone to battle. the underground secret bases were too inconvenient if you asked me.... and stones do not grow!! wth.
but on the subject of the moves you guys were discussing, i rather dislike both the digesting and banishing moves. digesting would only be acceptable if the poke was immediately coughed back up (not crapped out, as while that would be hilarious, it wouldn't sit well with younger players). and banish is too much like roar and disable put together. it shouldn't be permanent, as you should be able to switch it back in later on (say, after five turns). but i see that as being too much of an issue in competitions, and for sure something like that would be in the champ/E4's team somewhere, and just make it a pain in the @$$ to get past them. you'd pretty much just have to have a useless poke that would get hit with it first thing....

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Thu May 27, 2010 1:18 pm
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rex09 wrote:
you couldn't have edited..???
as a feature i would personally like to see make a return, is the secret bases (above ground like in hoenn). i liked how mixing records allowed those to give you someone to battle. the underground secret bases were too inconvenient if you asked me.... and stones do not grow!! wth.
but on the subject of the moves you guys were discussing, i rather dislike both the digesting and banishing moves. digesting would only be acceptable if the poke was immediately coughed back up (not crapped out, as while that would be hilarious, it wouldn't sit well with younger players). and banish is too much like roar and disable put together. it shouldn't be permanent, as you should be able to switch it back in later on (say, after five turns). but i see that as being too much of an issue in competitions, and for sure something like that would be in the champ/E4's team somewhere, and just make it a pain in the @$$ to get past them. you'd pretty much just have to have a useless poke that would get hit with it first thing....


I was going to just make one post but opted to do a separate one that time since we had two threads of discussion going on, the CONSUME move and weather effects and I figured it would be a cleaner way for someone to skip to what they wanted to discuss. I think you are right though and I'll stick to single posts.

The concept of CONSUME is to be a toony depiction of being swallowed and re-escaping on par with Elmer Fudd being swallowed by a lion (or whoever I'm thinking of) or Pinnochio being swallowed by the whale. I think the gross-out factor of it is eclipsed by the moveset and general descriptions in the Pokedex for {gulpin} and {swalot}. I would agree that poop is not a desirable element of battle, and nor is it implied here.

Regarding the raw mechanic of the move I think I covered these details but I'll clarify. I had to look up Roar as I have never used it or had it used on me but CONSUME would not cause a swap to a random Pokemon but allow the opposing trainer to pick an alternate Pokemon. Neither is the effect permanent, as i stated it only lasts 1-6 turns and shorter still if the opponent causes the consuming Pokemon to faint first. As soon as CONSUME is over, it simply unlocks the opponents ability to swap to that Pokemon, but it does not autmatically swap them in. Although the move seems powerful, it cannot be used as a one shot-attack since at most it does 60% damage (6 turns max, at 10% hitpoints per turn). Additionally it severely cripples the Pokemon that used the attack by leaving the user unable to swap out for the duration and at half of their original speed.

Regarding having an NPC use the move on you like for the E4 you mentioned, it would be a great thing to use on a player like me as a way to force them to at least consider using their other Pokemon in some capacity :)

I recognize the move is rather fringe for the Pokemon universe. I proposed it more for fun on the forums given that, at this point, the devs are probably more focused on wrapping things up and getting the game ready for stores in Japan than considering new game design mechanics.


Thu May 27, 2010 3:49 pm
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Diodon wrote:
rex09 wrote:
you couldn't have edited..???
as a feature i would personally like to see make a return, is the secret bases (above ground like in hoenn). i liked how mixing records allowed those to give you someone to battle. the underground secret bases were too inconvenient if you asked me.... and stones do not grow!! wth.
but on the subject of the moves you guys were discussing, i rather dislike both the digesting and banishing moves. digesting would only be acceptable if the poke was immediately coughed back up (not crapped out, as while that would be hilarious, it wouldn't sit well with younger players). and banish is too much like roar and disable put together. it shouldn't be permanent, as you should be able to switch it back in later on (say, after five turns). but i see that as being too much of an issue in competitions, and for sure something like that would be in the champ/E4's team somewhere, and just make it a pain in the @$$ to get past them. you'd pretty much just have to have a useless poke that would get hit with it first thing....


The concept of CONSUME is to be a toony depiction of being swallowed and re-escaping on par with Elmer Fudd being swallowed by a lion (or whoever I'm thinking of) or Pinnochio being swallowed by the whale. I think the gross-out factor of it is eclipsed by the moveset and general descriptions in the Pokedex for {gulpin} and {swalot}. I would agree that poop is not a desirable element of battle, and nor is it implied here.

Regarding the raw mechanic of the move I think I covered these details but I'll clarify. I had to look up Roar as I have never used it or had it used on me but CONSUME would not cause a swap to a random Pokemon but allow the opposing trainer to pick an alternate Pokemon. Neither is the effect permanent, as i stated it only lasts 1-6 turns and shorter still if the opponent causes the consuming Pokemon to faint first. As soon as CONSUME is over, it simply unlocks the opponents ability to swap to that Pokemon, but it does not autmatically swap them in. Although the move seems powerful, it cannot be used as a one shot-attack since at most it does 60% damage (6 turns max, at 10% hitpoints per turn). Additionally it severely cripples the Pokemon that used the attack by leaving the user unable to swap out for the duration and at half of their original speed.

I recognize the move is rather fringe for the Pokemon universe. I proposed it more for fun on the forums given that, at this point, the devs are probably more focused on wrapping things up and getting the game ready for stores in Japan than considering new game design mechanics.

hmm, i guess i get where you're coming from with this. but instead of having it do 10% damage at a time, maybe make it 5% and poison it (the linings of the stomach are horrible to flesh... but let's not get into that. i get that it's just for the forums, we all have ideas like that :-) . hmmm,, but the user should have to be limited in some way, as this essentially lets the user attack more than one pokemon at the same time.

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Thu May 27, 2010 6:47 pm
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rex09 wrote:
hmm, i guess i get where you're coming from with this. but instead of having it do 10% damage at a time, maybe make it 5% and poison it (the linings of the stomach are horrible to flesh... but let's not get into that. i get that it's just for the forums, we all have ideas like that :-) . hmmm,, but the user should have to be limited in some way, as this essentially lets the user attack more than one pokemon at the same time.


Well, the limits on the user are that they can't be swapped out yet the opponent gets free choice among his remaining Pokemon to then attack your speed reduced Pokemon. I honestly think something like Whitney's Miltank is far more obnoxious in that it can already effectively incapacitate you with Attract while it self-heals with Milk Drink.

The other limit I forgot about was the weight limit. The accuracy is scaled down to zero for opponents double the mass of the user so you can avoid this move altogether by using a very heavy Pokemon effectively causing the user to have a worthless move. If we don't give the whales this move then it should actually be a pretty severe limit since most of the other candidates are relatively small.

I'm actually thinking the limits make the move too situational to use in a real battle against a person. There is a huge risk that 1) you can't use it at all due to weight 2) you get KO'd before you even inflict much damage. All that said, if this were an actual move you would certainly want to balance it out and tweak all those numbers via playtesting.


Fri May 28, 2010 8:13 am
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hmmm, the weight thing is interesting, but as you said, it may make it a little too situational. see, if it were me, i would give it to pokes like lickitung, lickilicky, snorlax, and maybe some frogs or other ginormous-appetite pokemon. it would do great with snorlax if you add in the weight thing... but anyways, i would make it a two-turn move, where on the first turn it does damage, reduces the user's speed and increases the opponents accuracy (really drastically but only temporarily), then on the second turn spits it back out with a random status effect (except for attraction, freezing, or fainting; anything else is game, including confusion and burning) and sets the accuracy/speed back to normal. maybe a recoil for this?? the way i see it is, the user can't really do crap, as it's inside it's mouth; the opponent can do a crapload because it is (it would be really hard to miss). but it balances out this way. is this too much change, diodon?? or do you think it's the same/better??
to be more on topic, (we're not just talking about moves) i'd like the hgss feature of always having the running shoes on return. with d/p, sometimes my thumb would start to hurt from holding it down. then, i'd like a bit more of an intuitive menu (hgss was good, but i missed the apps; somehow, i'd like to see a combo).

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Fri May 28, 2010 1:15 pm
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Can we all agree there should be 3 modes of the GTS:
Mode 1: Normal ("Advanced")- you can search for anything you've seen, you can see any results. (7->5->3 results based on not using it for a month, not a few days though).
Mode 2: "Efficient" mode - you can search for anything you've seen, but you only see results asking for things you've seen (The game filters the incoming and bumps things asking for things you haven't seen until it finds 7, or goes through x tries).
Mode 3: "Basic" mode - same as efficient mode, but while you can search for legendaries/event pokemon, you cannot recieve results that ASK for legendary or event pokemon (thus solving the "Hey, I just got 7 returns for Magikarp and everyone wanted a shaymin" problem.

Also, there is a 4th "mode" worth discussing, but it's radically different:
Mode 4: "Auction (?)" mode - similar to the deposit feature, you select a pokemon from your box and it searches for the first 7 pokemon (w/ the option of location and size and gender?) which people are offering for said pokemon.

For example, you want to trade a Bulbasaur RIGHT NOW. Instead of looking for what you want, you could use mode 4, and get "offers" for it - hey look, someone is offering a caterpie; someone else a charmander!... woah, wait, someone's offering a Palkia for it? SOLD!
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Edit: On a completely different note, I'd also like there to be additional possibilities for Downloadable "roaming" pokemon (like mesprit/the dogs) - for example, while I'm all for key items that unlock certain areas (as long as they're offered more than once... hint hint), I'd also like non-essential, non-legendary roaming pokemon to be offered on a periodical basis.

For example, maybe each month there's a wifi mystery gift that deposits a certain pokemon in your "roaming" pokemon cache. Let's assume this cache is 10 pokemon deep, such that if there are 10 roaming pokemon you haven't caught - tough luck, the new one won't show up). You can see the wonder card on the mystery gift screen that says something like this "Be on the lookout for X, he's done Y and Z - catch him if you can")

Now, yes, there'll be the obligatory legendary mystery gift guys deposited this way, but I'm more interested in normal pokemon that just have special moves or hold special items or something that are deposited in the cache this way. For example, maybe you DL "Thieving Pikachu" which comes w/ Thief, Payday, Volt Tackle, and... uh... Dark Slash?, and then you can chase it around the game. Many of these could be shiny pokemon, although I figure they could pretty much get away with a schedule of:
1. Non-game event-pokemon, 2. Exclusive Move event pokemon, 3. shiny pokemon, 4. Legendary pokemon from a previous game/generation, 5. Set-stats pokemon from a previous generation (Think Adament Electrovire from PBR), 6. "Random" pokemon (from a given subset, determined when you dled it) holding a rare item (You couldn't tell what pokemon it was until you ran into it and caught it?).
Then, of course, loop back around (although the non-game event-pokemon might be an older generation one on the 2nd go-around). Of course, if you KO a pokemon in the cache, it is returned to the original stats it had (as opposed to disappearing).

The idea of about this is simple - it lets Gamefreak shake up the format at a moment's notice (Hey everyone, what if we had a Raikou with Dakr Pulse?), it gives you something to do, quest-like (although clearly not as epic as the pre-programmed quests), and, most importantly, it's something they can KEEP DOING. Arguably if all generation V (or VI) games have the same cache-system, they could all recieve the same mystery gifts (Although, maybe type 6 is a pokemon exclusive to the version you get - so if the item is, say, a life orb, Black gets a Magby w/ Life Orb, where Black doesn't have Magby naturally in the game, and white, which has Magby all over the place, gets a Elekid w/ Life Orb to chase around. Of course, all of #6 could have exclusive move-sets the pokemon wouldn't learn except by breeding, tutoring, using Tms, or being at a much, much higher level; but at the end of the day the fact that you bought BLACK as opposed to WHITE wouldn't ruin your day...


Fri May 28, 2010 7:30 pm
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After playing through Pearl, I *REALLY* hope that Black and White are able to connect to a previous generation's townset, or have a 2ndary townset to battle post-elite-4. HG/SS have a LOT of post-elite 4 playthrough, and I just don't feel the same about Pearl or Platinum.


Sun May 30, 2010 12:31 am
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what I would really like (tough it's just wishlisting I know) is that they create a sort of core game region and make the other "versions" a sort of plug in extra regions.

Say I have the black version and inserting a red version as well would give me the option to go explore Kanto for a while, adding all the pokémon I catch there etc onto the "core" version black
I don't know anything about programming etc but I imagine it would be possible to create a system like that.
giving ppl the all inclusive world they dream about but still being able to keep the franchise going with the creating of new regions (with a story line and there own added features)

I read the idea of you having to start over again every time somewhere, I'd try and work on the idea of using gyms to limit the maximum level of pokémon you can withdraw from your boxes on the core version.
if you implement a sort of save system like the battle frontier seems to have so that you can save inside a region and thus start there when you start playing again.
combined with a region save of how far you have come within the region so you can pick up on the story line after you have left the region and actually removed the cartridge to go and explore some other other place or a while. This save will have to be less refined that the first since the pokémon in your box and party will have changed.
the main version could then consist of the the real central things like 1 real trade center (you won't need it as often anyway) and a trainer city which includes the biggest pokémon league and a world around it with some gyms. a main port / train station to take you places.
the rest could be like 15 regions ( one per cartridge) or so all with things that can be discovered. a bit like the islands but on a larger scale (much larger)
a cold northern region, with permanent snow storms with huge caves to explore and it's own set of like 4 gyms it's own towns etc ( or maybe even north/ south)
a desert region, but like a real proper desert not one route hardly the size of a village.
a tropical forest
kanto and the lot preferably increased in size :D
a few island groups
etc
obviously there is a lot of thinking to be done over this system but I think it could really work and it would be really awsome :-)

it's a bit of overkill for now but at the rate that new pokémon are being developed we'll run into a situation where you'd either have to buy like 10-15 versions to capture them all anyway, at that point all the annoying trading around and looking for a pokémon you misplaced etc will just make the game highly annoying.
imagine having 16 versions creating a total of 100 badges or so combined with regional extra's like contests etc combined with like 2000 pokemon spread out over those regions. and your one main character can visit them all ^.^ and they all use 1 box system, so no need to trade, an option to redo certain story lines with a starter of your own choice and the developers still get to sell all that they need.

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Sun May 30, 2010 4:38 am
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My # most favorite feature that B/W should have would be expandability... or "Forward compatability" IE, if new pokemon are created in the future, that the game will be able to "add" pokemon, moves, a features found in the pokemon code, to handle trading and battling with future generations. That way B/W never become some shell game that is used only 'upload" old pokemon from, but it becomes a truely distinct region that will be able to be used for years to come.

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to trade your current pokemon from Gen IV and go back and play through Hoenn. Or go through the story of FRLG? This would also fit in nicely with the Story+ idea, which would allow you to replay the story on your cart, without losing all the pokemon that are in your boxes.

Chances of happening = about 0, cause Nintendo wouldn't make huge $ on the remake. Although, this would allow the inclusion of adding downloadable pokemon created in the future. Or releasing a "new" move that helps rebalance, or updated moveset to balance out the game without having to create a whole new generation. Kinda like DLC, where these things come in "packs" that you can pay for the extra content.

They could even make this a feature that is only available to DSi's (that have storage space) or the new gen handheld they haven't released yet. This would certainly push the "need" to buy one of these new consoles.


Sun May 30, 2010 9:03 am
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puck269 wrote:
My # most favorite feature that B/W should have would be expandability... or "Forward compatability" IE, if new pokemon are created in the future, that the game will be able to "add" pokemon, moves, a features found in the pokemon code, to handle trading and battling with future generations. That way B/W never become some shell game that is used only 'upload" old pokemon from, but it becomes a truely distinct region that will be able to be used for years to come.

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to trade your current pokemon from Gen IV and go back and play through Hoenn. Or go through the story of FRLG? This would also fit in nicely with the Story+ idea, which would allow you to replay the story on your cart, without losing all the pokemon that are in your boxes.

Chances of happening = about 0, cause Nintendo wouldn't make huge $ on the remake. Although, this would allow the inclusion of adding downloadable pokemon created in the future. Or releasing a "new" move that helps rebalance, or updated moveset to balance out the game without having to create a whole new generation. Kinda like DLC, where these things come in "packs" that you can pay for the extra content.

They could even make this a feature that is only available to DSi's (that have storage space) or the new gen handheld they haven't released yet. This would certainly push the "need" to buy one of these new consoles.

It's not a money thing, it's a coding thing. It's perfectly doable to add, say, 100 or 200 "blank base stats/movesets/eggmovesets/art" into the game, and arguably easy to add 50 "blank move codes" into the game, such that nintendo could DL a large wifi patch if and when a new game came out.

This wouldn't be like Mew, where the code is already in the game; it's be more like missing number until someone DLs a pokemon.

However, this code would most often be hacked so that action replayers can create their own custom pokemon and moves, and at the end of the day, it's more disc space than it'd be worth.

That said, I'd be SUPER OKAY with, say, 5-10 unobtainable pokemon who are programmed into the game but only available on "Pokemon Grey", the 3rd game in the series, or on "Pokemon World", the wii game that is a consol version of the handheld games where you can visit all regions...


Sun May 30, 2010 12:45 pm
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labarith wrote:

It's not a money thing, it's a coding thing. It's perfectly doable to add, say, 100 or 200 "blank base stats/movesets/eggmovesets/art" into the game, and arguably easy to add 50 "blank move codes" into the game, such that nintendo could DL a large wifi patch if and when a new game came out.

This wouldn't be like Mew, where the code is already in the game; it's be more like missing number until someone DLs a pokemon.

However, this code would most often be hacked so that action replayers can create their own custom pokemon and moves, and at the end of the day, it's more disc space than it'd be worth.

That said, I'd be SUPER OKAY with, say, 5-10 unobtainable pokemon who are programmed into the game but only available on "Pokemon Grey", the 3rd game in the series, or on "Pokemon World", the wii game that is a consol version of the handheld games where you can visit all regions...


I'm not exactly sure where you were going with this to start, seems like theres something missing in your opinion.. but let me address what did make sense.

The action replay thing may be a problem. I hadn't thought of that to be honest. However, it has been and will always be a problem with hacking pokemon that aren't "real". To say that this would really create an additional problem, I think, is a little short sided and dismissive.

As for the "held back" pokemon, that are in the programming. I think you miss the point. This isn't for just the held out pokemon.. like Arceus was for a looooooooong time. This is like programming b/w so that say Zororak would be able to be played in Pearl (if Pearl was programmed the way I'm introducing). Simply holding pokemon for future release isn't "forward compatability", it is simply unlocking what is already there.

This also would be a feature that wouldn't necessarly save on the cart so much, to add the space. So there isn't a reason to worry about them "wasting" space on empty slots. This is more like leaving a tag in the original program that a DLC pack could be attached to. Think of it similar to that of like Borderlands, or any other xbox or ps game that has DLC to "add" to the original game. It isn't on the disk, but it requires you to have additional space to add to the game. This would simply be a DSi only feature (and the new handheld, cause I can't imagine it not coming with DL storage space). You don't see a problem now with too many "hacked" levels being added to these other xbox games and stuff, even though the technology is there to do it, do you?


Sun May 30, 2010 7:02 pm
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puck269 wrote:
This isn't for just the held out pokemon.. like Arceus was for a looooooooong time. This is like programming b/w so that say Zororak would be able to be played in Pearl (if Pearl was programmed the way I'm introducing). Simply holding pokemon for future release isn't "forward compatability", it is simply unlocking what is already there.

The differences is that for Arceus, every game had his pokemon code/moves/etc. For "Not yet released guy who we haven't even made up", they'd have to send the art, the programming, the base stats, ETC. everywhere he went, otherwise he'd be nothing more than a "missing number" on old games.

You can't have forward compatibility w/o a DL of data, and that is highly implausible.


Sun May 30, 2010 7:40 pm
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labarith wrote:
puck269 wrote:
This isn't for just the held out pokemon.. like Arceus was for a looooooooong time. This is like programming b/w so that say Zororak would be able to be played in Pearl (if Pearl was programmed the way I'm introducing). Simply holding pokemon for future release isn't "forward compatability", it is simply unlocking what is already there.

The differences is that for Arceus, every game had his pokemon code/moves/etc. For "Not yet released guy who we haven't even made up", they'd have to send the art, the programming, the base stats, ETC. everywhere he went, otherwise he'd be nothing more than a "missing number" on old games.

You can't have forward compatibility w/o a DL of data, and that is highly implausible.


I don't want to sound like a jerk, but do you even know what DLC is? The meaning behind add-on content? I'm just curious because a ton of games are doing exactly what I'm proposing pokemon do. It isn't highly implausible. It is in fact highly plausible. If Pearl/Diamond were to have been programmed how I would like B/W to be programmed, a simple DLC update pack could be downloaded to allow the transfer of Zororak into your P/D game.

The only implausible part, like I mentioned in my OP, is that Nintendo is unlikely to do it. Heck, they almost purposefully lock out platium, HG, and SS from Pokemon Revolution for the Wii.. or My Pokemon Ranch.. for no reason at all. It is part of their corporate strategy to milk remakes. The sad part is, that with a simple title update, they could fix those games to allow it. However, they don't.


Sun May 30, 2010 8:49 pm
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puck269 wrote:
I don't want to sound like a jerk, but do you even know what DLC is? The meaning behind add-on content? I'm just curious because a ton of games are doing exactly what I'm proposing pokemon do. It isn't highly implausible. It is in fact highly plausible. If Pearl/Diamond were to have been programmed how I would like B/W to be programmed, a simple DLC update pack could be downloaded to allow the transfer of Zororak into your P/D game.

The only implausible part, like I mentioned in my OP, is that Nintendo is unlikely to do it. Heck, they almost purposefully lock out platium, HG, and SS from Pokemon Revolution for the Wii.. or My Pokemon Ranch.. for no reason at all. It is part of their corporate strategy to milk remakes. The sad part is, that with a simple title update, they could fix those games to allow it. However, they don't.

If we were talking about a computer game, or a game system that had external memory, sure.

But let's get something straight - leaving empty space for X moves and Y pokemon on a game with the idea you'd DL a bunch of data packets from wifi is highly implausible for several reasons, but the most plausible reason is this:
All things being equal, which do you think is easier:
A) Programming Celebi/Mew/Jirachi/insert-event-exclusive-pokemon into a game, and simply not giving you the chance to catch it in-game.
or
B) leaving space for Celebi/Mew/Jirachi/insert-event-exclusive-pokemon in a game, then requiring everyone DL the data for Celebi/Mew/Jirachi/insert-event-exclusive-pokemon when they get around to designing it.

A) is what was done not only w/ Mew, but with every version-exclusive pokemon - if you can't catch pokemon X on Red, you could catch it on Y and trade it over.
B)'s ONLY advantage over A is that it allows a LIMITED next-gen interaction; but in doing so it also cripples the next generation. Let's say there's some move "DOUBLE SUPER FAST AWESOME MOVE" which has move-priority 8 for some reason, while the old game system only has game mechanics for up to move 7. NOW not only do you need to DL the data for the pokemon, and the moves, but you need to DL updated game system data. And if you've had ANY experience updating an old product, you realize that "uninstall, then reinstall" is usually more efficient than adding patches.

The fact of the matter is that you are tying next-generation pokemon mechanics to the previous generation capacities - I'm not talking animations, movesets, or the like, I'm talking EVERYTHING can't be new or innovative.

For example, Generation II games couldn't trade eggs to generation 1 games. Generation II games couldn't make sense of weather phenominon. So, really, all you're doing is tying the hands of next-generation game designers in a hope to save money.

Now, would it be cool? Yes. Is it practical? For the reasons I've said, and numerous more, no. And if you SERIOUSLY still do not understand my point after taking a breath, walking away, and coming back and reading this post with a clean, level head... there's nothing I, or anyone else, could ever say to you, and thus you're wasting all of our time.


Sun May 30, 2010 9:38 pm
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Pokemon Ranger
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I think you're both wasting time.
It's probably not gonna happen, but it'd be pretty flippin neat if it did.
There, I said the same thing you both did. =)

In response to labarith's bit about external memory...
Why not make an online Pokemon game?
Something with the same system and capacity as the other games already including DownLoadable Content (that was for anyone else reading this who has no effin clue what DLC means).
Wouldn't it be amazing if Nintendo's new handheld system were to be one with internet access equal to that of the XBox 360?
I'm having a gamergasm thinking about it right now.

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Sun May 30, 2010 10:36 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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well if you had to pay like Xbox, then bunk that!

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Sun May 30, 2010 10:44 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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Spoinkable wrote:
I think you're both wasting time.
It's probably not gonna happen, but it'd be pretty flippin neat if it did.
There, I said the same thing you both did. =)

In response to labarith's bit about external memory...
Why not make an online Pokemon game?
Something with the same system and capacity as the other games already including DownLoadable Content (that was for anyone else reading this who has no effin clue what DLC means).
Wouldn't it be amazing if Nintendo's new handheld system were to be one with internet access equal to that of the XBox 360?
I'm having a gamergasm thinking about it right now.

Yes, an online game would be nice. But we're talking Wii/console game.

And once again, the problem with downloadable content is that it's limited by the game's systems/mechanics. Generation 1 could never have eggs, at least not without some substantially burdensome downloadable content.

It's one thing to say a game should be backwards compatible - all in all, whatever the next gen. game has, it's probably building on the previous generation.
It's quite a different to say that a game should be future-compatible - it limits what can be done in the next generation.

What if all future computer programs had to be such that they'd run on the current system? Can see the problem now? It's impractical, and something you really don't want. If technology was stagnent, it would be a goal. But it's not, so it's not. It sounds cool, but in retrospect, it's not what you want.


Sun May 30, 2010 10:50 pm
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labarith wrote:
Yes, an online game would be nice. But we're talking Wii/console game.

And once again, the problem with downloadable content is that it's limited by the game's systems/mechanics. Generation 1 could never have eggs, at least not without some substantially burdensome downloadable content.

It's one thing to say a game should be backwards compatible - all in all, whatever the next gen. game has, it's probably building on the previous generation.
It's quite a different to say that a game should be future-compatible - it limits what can be done in the next generation.

What if all future computer programs had to be such that they'd run on the current system? Can see the problem now? It's impractical, and something you really don't want. If technology was stagnent, it would be a goal. But it's not, so it's not. It sounds cool, but in retrospect, it's not what you want.

Hm, I see.

Then how about they just leave space to keep creating things on the same engine between generations?
So they could keep up with stuff like "wow, Burmy's family isn't as successful as we thought, let's give them new evolutions."
Or they could just let the creative juices flow and give us a few gems to tide us over while they're making the next all-new system.?

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Sun May 30, 2010 11:00 pm
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What's the difference between that and a combination of the following:
A. "Secret" pokemon (think Arceus) who wouldn't be released until later. Some of these could, arguably, even breed (but these would clearly need to be released first, for fear of hackers littering the landscape with children who look legitimate in every way except that they were born before the pokemon was released).
B. Exclusive pokemon w/ new movesets.
C. Exclusive pokemon w/ eggmoves that, prior to their release, cannot be gotten in any way (For example, imagine if on Platinum/Pearl/Diamond, Extreme Speed was a Dragonite Eggmove that, because of the game's not having something w/ Extreme Speed in that breeding group, could never be realized... until HG's ES Dratini showed up...).

It's fairly clear that Gamefreak doesn't hyper-metagame tourneys, so I don't see them saying "Hey, Dragonite's not as cool as we want, so we'll have a datapatch DL everyone must install before battling in official tournies that gives it a new evolution."

The difference is that your suggestion requires more wifi downloads, makes people's games out of date, and generally takes away from GENUINE wifi events. I mean what good is getting an event shaymin when I could get an event "Patch that gives you 20 more egg moves and 5 new moves to play with."?


Mon May 31, 2010 1:47 am
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Labrith,

I completely understand what you are thinking. However, I think we aren't completely on the same page. I'm not talking about completely bringing over all the new mechanics and such. I'm talking about being able to transfer new pokemon, with new moves, into the old games, then back again. It isn't as complicated as you make it out to being.

Look at FRLG for example. They did not have all the features, bells and whistles as the other Gen 3 games. However, when you transfered pokemon between the two versions, they didn't lose data, nor were they incompatable. This is kinda what I'm talking about. Right now, each pokemon .sav data is static and basically it can't grow beyond what it was programmed for. The old game say, A gen 3 game wouldn't be able to understand a Gen 4 poke's "new" ribbons.. or whatever other "secret" data they've added between gens.

What I'm proposing, is releasing a patch that would reside on the DSi that would be able to bridge that gap and provide a box or 2 to stick those "new" pokemon in.. off the cart. It is similar to what like Borderlands did with new items and other DLC that happens. If you have the patch, your good, if not you can't make the jump between generations. Where you can bring in an new poke from a later gen, the data wouldn't be lost; however, the old game would only read the information from the .sav data that was relevant to that version of the game. Like prior to the National Dex in FRLG, the game probably ignored the friendship stat. Or like how it ignored the ribbons and contest stats that a pokemon from Hoenn had. The data wasn't gone, it just wasn't used by the game. When you decided to trade it back to Hoenn, all the "hidden" stats were still there.

As for splintering the market. That is a concern. But if you do it similar to how Gold and Silver treated the trading from Red-Blue where you can only battle or trade pokemon if 1. the other version had the patch, or 2. (in the case of same-gen trading with DLC) The pokemon trade/battle could be completed completly pre-patch (like the pokemon doesn't require a patch to have the moves and stuff). It is pre-planning.

Obviously it would be something completely drastic and different. We might not all understand how it works. But if it is possible to do in other games, then it is certainly possible to do in pokemon. It would certainly take a different mindset/corporate strategy from Nintendo to impliment it.. but as you can see, they are slowly starting to come around. It took them forever to embrace Wifi/Internet.. but they are slowly doing it.. they will eventually embrace the idea of DLC also, and pokemon provides the perfect vehicle to usher in that era.

You mentioned a concern about hidden pokemon or exclusives. This isn't what this is about. I'm not suggesting that any pokemon that can't be found in the game have to be purchased as DLC in order to get them. I'm not talking about replacing the system they used and having all "known" or "planned" pokemon from having animation data and cart specific learnmovesets on the cart itself. I'm simply talking about giving people the option to be able to purchase an add-on to their current gen games to make them more current or to extend the life of the game. Like I said before, I know many of us would love the ability to take a Tangrowth and play through Hoenn or 1st run Kanto.

I really can't stress the example of playing Gen IV pokes in Hoenn. You wouldn't expect them to change everything about the battle system with an update. You would be playing the game retro style, without the new differences between physical and special attacks. But the update would allow you to use those same pokemon with their moves (and the moves would have different effects because of the version you are playing on) to play through the story, or just level up to learn moves (a move like Body Slam on Dunsparce that can only be leanred in Gen 3) and stuff. What if they had a location specific evolution.. and left that location without making a replica in the new gen.. meaning in order to evolve Nosepass, you couldn't do it in Gen 6, but you had to trade it back to Gen 5 where the location could be present, or vice versa.

It isn't completely without precedent. Nintendo did update Emerald, it just wasn't on as large of a scale as I'm proposing.

Now, as to Labrith's question about wifi tournys and stuff. They already do it. They already force compatability with the new version.. or have a HG/SS cart or something like that to compete. Instead, this actually gives people the ability to play in those tourny's without having to pick up the new version. Or it allows them to download an event pokemon item that is distributed that is say, only found on Platinium.. but since they had the patch, they would be able to get the item on their Pearl/Diamond carts.


Mon May 31, 2010 8:29 am
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Dragon Tamer
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puck269 wrote:
Labrith,

I completely understand what you are thinking. However, I think we aren't completely on the same page. I'm not talking about completely bringing over all the new mechanics and such. I'm talking about being able to transfer new pokemon, with new moves, into the old games, then back again. It isn't as complicated as you make it out to being.

Dear Puck 269,
I'm afraid we're on the same page, it's just you seem to be reading what you want to hear.

I want you to imagine something, okay? Best Case Scenario on your view, there is an update of the Generation V games right before Generation VI. This update allows pokemon from Generation VI to be transfered over to generation V IF and ONLY IF Pokemon from generation VI do not have moves/pokemon abilities that are "too complex" to be programmed into Generation V games. The easiest model for this is the Generation 2 time machine, except rather than only being able to trade the first 151 pokemon, you can now trade a percentage of generation VI pokemon to Generation V. Not ALL of them, mind you, because Pokemon 612-615, 644-649, 677-700, and 703-722, let's say, have pokemon abilities that don't translate to Generation V. And no, they can't be traded over w/ "Generation V retarded mechanics", because YOU want to be able to fight generation VI games with your generation V games. Also, you cannot trade pokemon with moves U, V, W, X, Y, and Z over to generation V, as they cannot be used on generation V games. ALSO you cannot trade pokemon over with G6 ribbons. You cannot trade over a subset of items because they do different things that are incompatible w/ Generation V, even post-update.

Well, that's a price you'll pay, you say. You fully admit that Generation V cannot be FULLY compatible with generation VI, so you could only trade a subset of pokemon. Now, of course, as a byproduct of this, Generation V unupdated games crash when battling generation V.2 updated games. But there's nothing that can be done about that. And Generation VI battles are of 2 kinds - pure Generation VI, and held-back generation VIGeneration V compatible. But of course people rarely play held-back mode.

Now, even after ALL THIS, here's what I need to ask you - if you had to choose between limited Generation VI "new pokemon update" compatibility, that takes a large chunk of programing space in both Generation V AND VI games, or one of the following, which would you choose:
1) 100 more 30x pokemon boxes.
2) The Diamond/Pearl/Platinum world/island programmed into Generation V, a la HG/SS's Kanto.
3) ~10-20 more minigames where you either catch pokemon, EV train pokemon, and/or gain experience w/ pokemon.
4) 100 more pokewalker routes.
5) A new "underground"-esque feature.

What you propose is a MASSIVE AMOUNT OF SPACE on generation V games being devoted to allowing the game to be updated, and to the actual update. Let alone the massive amount of space on generation VI games being devoted to inferior generation V.2 gameplay.

I don't expect I'll be able to convince you at this point. You've dug your heels in and you don't want to listen to reason. I'm sorry about that. But your idea is a fanstasy, ideal ONLY if you are ignorant about how programing works.


Mon May 31, 2010 10:39 am
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Pokemon Ranger
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I'm ignorant to programming, and it sounds heavenly =)

labarith brought up a good point in there that struck me, which I'd like to fish out.

labarith wrote:
Now, of course, as a byproduct of this, Generation V unupdated games crash when battling generation V.2 updated games.

This would, indeed, limit interactive play.

Hm, what if they included something like "Wii System Update"s, where whenever you log onto Wi-Fi with your game, it updates the game? Or the system?
Sure, it'd take a few minutes every now and then, but I think it'd be forgivable by the masses.
Again, I have no idea how programming works. Just an idea.

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Mon May 31, 2010 11:39 am
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