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 Improving/Balancing Out Moves 
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Dragon Tamer
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Hmm what moves would you like to see changed, whether they be weakened, less accurate, more effective, etc. Or what are some new moves you'd like to see?

Ugh I just faced a {tentacruel} that would only use Constrict... Constrict has only 10 BP and only has a 10% chance of lowering the foe's speed. That needs to be fixed! Something like Constrict, 10 base power, will lower opponent's speed by 1 stage, 20% chance of lowering by 2 stages.

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Tue May 11, 2010 9:53 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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I think most HMs should be improved to be up to par with Fly and Surf. Strength, I think, should be 100 power (making it one of the BEST attack moves).

Cut, I think, should be improved. I could easily see it do 70 damage and have an extra ability (I like the idea that you can take "cuttings" of certain plant pokemon and grow them...).


Tue May 11, 2010 11:02 pm
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Bug Catcher
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i agree with that. cut should give a chance to flinch and rock smash should just get a base power boost to about 50.

unfortunatley none of these changes will happen.

why? because black and white are most likely going to be backwards compatible with diamond/pearl/platinum and heartgold/soulsilver in a similar fashion that gold/silver was compatible with red/blue( no new pokemon or moves could be linked up with the older games.) , which means no attack can be changed and no pokemon can have altered base stats because the older games would not have the coding for the newer version.


Wed May 12, 2010 2:33 am
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Pokemon Master
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cheesehead wrote:


why? because black and white are most likely going to be backwards compatible with diamond/pearl/platinum and heartgold/soulsilver in a similar fashion that gold/silver was compatible with red/blue( no new pokemon or moves could be linked up with the older games.) , which means no attack can be changed and no pokemon can have altered base stats because the older games would not have the coding for the newer version.



Between D/P and Platinum: Hypnosis was changed from 70% to 60%, U-turn was changed to not forcing a choiced poke brought in to use U-turn(if it knew it) as well, Tickle now fails against Subs, Acid rain glitch.
For PvP battles the games are set to follow the rules of the most recent games. Changes will likely happen but nothing major.

I just want finch removed from serene grace.

The feature to battle with 4th gen is highly doubtful to be there, too complex and not worth it. Pal park and Trading at best.

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Wed May 12, 2010 7:48 am
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Pokemon Master
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labarith wrote:
I think most HMs should be improved to be up to par with Fly and Surf. Strength, I think, should be 100 power (making it one of the BEST attack moves).

Cut, I think, should be improved. I could easily see it do 70 damage and have an extra ability (I like the idea that you can take "cuttings" of certain plant pokemon and grow them...).


Return is 102 base at max and learned by almost everything. When you get Cut in-game it holds on par with other 40-50 base moves so at the time so it's balanced, but falls behind later on. Aside from Surf the other HMs work out about the same.

Besides I LOVE it when someone's Dialga finds it best to spam me with Rock Smash :p

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Wed May 12, 2010 7:56 am
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Pokemon Ranger
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MasterChef wrote:
labarith wrote:
I think most HMs should be improved to be up to par with Fly and Surf. Strength, I think, should be 100 power (making it one of the BEST attack moves).

Cut, I think, should be improved. I could easily see it do 70 damage and have an extra ability (I like the idea that you can take "cuttings" of certain plant pokemon and grow them...).


Return is 102 base at max and learned by almost everything. When you get Cut in-game it holds on par with other 40-50 base moves so at the time so it's balanced, but falls behind later on. Aside from Surf the other HMs work out about the same.

Besides I LOVE it when someone's Dialga finds it best to spam me with Rock Smash :p


Yes the defense drops are just beautiful xD

I hate moves with bad side effects...

@Cheif: congrats on your daughter.

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Wed May 12, 2010 8:29 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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How about either adding some new moves or changing some moves to look like the following:

(bold means change, () mean original)

Fire Punch
- fighting (fire) type
- 65 (75) base power
- 100 accuracy
- 15 pp
- is super effective against foes whose weaknesses are either fire or fighting. 10% chance of burning opponent

______

You get it? Fire Punch would now be fighting type but will be super effective against those weak to fighting or fire

inversely;

Fire Punch could remain fire type, but will be super effective against those weak to fire or fighting

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Thu May 20, 2010 5:55 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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MasterChef wrote:
labarith wrote:
I think most HMs should be improved to be up to par with Fly and Surf. Strength, I think, should be 100 power (making it one of the BEST attack moves).

Cut, I think, should be improved. I could easily see it do 70 damage and have an extra ability (I like the idea that you can take "cuttings" of certain plant pokemon and grow them...).


Return is 102 base at max and learned by almost everything. When you get Cut in-game it holds on par with other 40-50 base moves so at the time so it's balanced, but falls behind later on. Aside from Surf the other HMs work out about the same.

Besides I LOVE it when someone's Dialga finds it best to spam me with Rock Smash :p

Maybe Cut and Strength can be partially based on your level.
Cut could do damage equal to the level you are rounded up to the nearest 10?
Strength could have a greater chance to make your opponent flinch if you're a fighting or normal type?

All I know is I hate having to have an HM slave. Waterfall is good in Generation 4. Surf and Fly have been good for a while.


Fri May 21, 2010 1:23 am
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Dragon Tamer
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ok new move:

Basically it halves the chance of any opponent's attack from causing secondary effects (anything from burns to flinching to lowering a stat) for 5 turns.

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Fri May 21, 2010 5:17 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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Ajit wrote:
ok new move:

Basically it halves the chance of any opponent's attack from causing secondary effects (anything from burns to flinching to lowering a stat) for 5 turns.

So basically you want a move that is like 70-90% worthless and then only 50% successful? x 5? Do you realize how DO NOTHING that is?

And, really, when would you ever use this?
You: Ajit move go!
Them: Darn, my Waterfall only KOs your guy... no flinching. (falls on floor laughning, crushes gameboy, you win by default).


Fri May 21, 2010 5:54 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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well then why does everyone b!tch and moan about togekiss' ability if its moves are going to one-hit KO you anyways

I mean it was just a concept move, it could be 75% as opposed to 50% or last for 10 rounds or do damage as well its intended effect, etc.

Besides, it doesn't even need to be a super competitive move. I mean growl still exists but who would use it in an online serious battle?

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Fri May 21, 2010 6:36 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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Ajit wrote:
well then why does everyone b!tch and moan about togekiss' ability if its moves are going to one-hit KO you anyways

I mean it was just a concept move, it could be 75% as opposed to 50% or last for 10 rounds or do damage as well its intended effect, etc.

Besides, it doesn't even need to be a super competitive move. I mean growl still exists but who would use it in an online serious battle?

How about make it a hold item. That way, at least, I don't need to make my pokemon NOT learn it, I can just shove the stupid thing in my bag and never deal with it.

Togekiss is good because it's got good Base Stats and having a benificial ability is good. I've never seen people b*tch about it. At least not as much as I've personally complained about the genuinely worthless 5 turn things. "Oh noze, you whipped up a Sandstorm... and my pokemon's over level 2, so it doesn't even notice."


Fri May 21, 2010 7:32 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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labarith wrote:

How about make it a hold item. That way, at least, I don't need to make my pokemon NOT learn it, I can just shove the stupid thing in my bag and never deal with it.

Togekiss is good because it's got good Base Stats and having a benificial ability is good. I've never seen people b*tch about it. At least not as much as I've personally complained about the genuinely worthless 5 turn things. "Oh noze, you whipped up a Sandstorm... and my pokemon's over level 2, so it doesn't even notice."


It could be a potential hold item I suppose, but not for the sarcastic purposes you mention.

And you do realize

A) regardless of level, a move like sandstorm would effect any pokemon equally because it takes a percentage of health, not a specified number/amount of health

B) moves like sandstorm are worth a lot more than you give credit. Increasing sp. def by 50%, etc.

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Fri May 21, 2010 8:01 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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It could be a potential hold item I suppose, but not for the sarcastic purposes you mention.

And you do realize

A) regardless of level, a move like sandstorm would effect any pokemon equally because it takes a percentage of health, not a specified number/amount of health

B) moves like sandstorm are worth a lot more than you give credit. Increasing sp. def by 50%, etc.[/quote]
Making it a hold item opens up more game potential, and makes playing easier for the person who isn't super-meta-gaming with moves that only matter if you don't 1 or 2 hit KO your opponent.

As for Sandstorm:
a) my point is that if I have a lapras or snorlax or anything that's a tank out, Sandstorm wastes as much time as the rain weather effect when there are no water or fire pokemon out.
b) I'm more annoyed at Sandstorm because it sits there and wastes my time. I'd like to surf your rock or ground guy into death now, I don't need or care about you raising your sp. def. :P So you die to 2 surfs instead of 1... you wasted one turn on sandstorm!


Fri May 21, 2010 8:08 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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labarith wrote:
As for Sandstorm:
a) my point is that if I have a lapras or snorlax or anything that's a tank out, Sandstorm wastes as much time as the rain weather effect when there are no water or fire pokemon out.
b) I'm more annoyed at Sandstorm because it sits there and wastes my time. I'd like to surf your rock or ground guy into death now, I don't need or care about you raising your sp. def. :P So you die to 2 surfs instead of 1... you wasted one turn on sandstorm!


If you have a sandstorm based team, then your next pokemon will reap the benefits of sandstorm without having to performing it themselves. Not to mention pokemon with Sandstream so you don't spend a turn on it.

I'm not pretending to be some pro-battler, but I think what I'm saying makes sense.

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Fri May 21, 2010 8:15 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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Ajit wrote:
labarith wrote:
As for Sandstorm:
a) my point is that if I have a lapras or snorlax or anything that's a tank out, Sandstorm wastes as much time as the rain weather effect when there are no water or fire pokemon out.
b) I'm more annoyed at Sandstorm because it sits there and wastes my time. I'd like to surf your rock or ground guy into death now, I don't need or care about you raising your sp. def. :P So you die to 2 surfs instead of 1... you wasted one turn on sandstorm!


If you have a sandstorm based team, then your next pokemon will reap the benefits of sandstorm without having to performing it themselves. Not to mention pokemon with Sandstream so you don't spend a turn on it.

I'm not pretending to be some pro-battler, but I think what I'm saying makes sense.

Sandstream's the only way I'd consider it. It's still annoying as all heck in-game, but it's made all the worse by having to SUMMON it every battle, wasting a turn. Take even the most medeocre move and make it a pokemon ability and suddenly it's awesome - Look, it's "Ember-ability" (When this pokemon switches into the batltefield, "ember".) - suddenly good, no?

Personally, if they're going to fix these kind of moves, I think they should take Sandstorm and all similar moves and make them go throughout the battle or until another effect overwrites/eliminates them. As for their "8 turn" hold-items, I say make them actually increase the effectiveness of the weather effect. To counter this, add some moves (normal, flying, ghost?) that do decent damage (70-95) and have an additional effect of disrupting some/all weather effects. Then you can add attacks that get better in weather effects (Sandburst - ~ deals 70 damage, ground, 50% chance of going critical if Sandstorm is out? Or +30 damage is Sandstorm is out?). That way casting a sandstorm is basically Sandstream that takes a turn to summon - and if your guy's got enough defense, you're okay with that.


Fri May 21, 2010 8:31 pm
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If they aren't going to fix grass strengths and weaknesses, at least make its [some] offensive moves deal more damage, i.e., +10-20 base damage.

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Sun May 23, 2010 1:30 am
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Dragon Tamer
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AceTrainer wrote:
If they aren't going to fix grass strengths and weaknesses, at least make its [some] offensive moves deal more damage, i.e., +10-20 base damage.

Leafstorm's pretty good...

But I wouldn't mind more innovate grass moves, like Grass Knot, to make up for it's common weaknesses. Weak recovery moves are annoying as they could be good if not for it's weaknesses, and they're annoying if you're not prepared.


Sun May 23, 2010 1:47 am
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labarith wrote:
AceTrainer wrote:
If they aren't going to fix grass strengths and weaknesses, at least make its [some] offensive moves deal more damage, i.e., +10-20 base damage.

Leafstorm's pretty good...

But I wouldn't mind more innovate grass moves, like Grass Knot, to make up for it's common weaknesses. Weak recovery moves are annoying as they could be good if not for it's weaknesses, and they're annoying if you're not prepared.


Since Grass are usually limited to support/harassment, maybe they could get more moves that have secondary effects. For example,

Spore Storm - Deals ~70-80 damage with a high chance (~30%) chance to cause sleep, paralysis or poisoning. Special, does not make contact, 90% accuracy.

by level up:

{paras} , {parasect} , {oddish} line, {bulbasaur} line, {meganium} , {sceptile} , {breloom} , {jumpluff}

by breeding:

{torterra} , {bellsprout} line

Fruit Bomb (sounds like a smoothie or a shake flavor :D) - Does a solid (as in constant like dragon rage) 60 damage that could make the foe flinch (~30%) chance. Physical, does not make contact, 90% accuracy.

by level up:

{exeggutor} , {tropius} , {cherrim}

by breeding:

Grass types with flowers? I dunno

Root Strike - a high priority move dealing 60 damage. Physical(?) and does not make contact(?). Does not hit flying types.

Petal Guard - blocks super effective moves for 2-5 turns (this one here sounds a bit overpowered but I think the grass types deserve this to actually be useful other than their support role).

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Sun May 23, 2010 10:39 am
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Dragon Tamer
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Acetrainer, remember to include PPs in your moves.

"Spore Storm" seems boring and pretty bad. I came up w/ an attack last night w/ a similar name/concept - but it did 40 damage x 3 - 1st in grass, w/ a 10 percent chance of sleep, then in poison w/ a 10 percent chance of poison, then in fire w/ a 10 percent chance of burn. It's innovative because it's 3 seperate attacks in one, it's base power is 120, but only 40 of that gets STAB, and it allows for a variety of weaknesses. 5-10 PP.

As for who'd get it... mainly guys who have spore-based attack already. No need making specifics.

"Fruit Bomb" should be "Berry Bomb" and should basically be them throwing their berry to do lots of damage. Because it's a once per item thing, they should make it do probably 80 damage, 10 pp, and have a high critical hit ratio w/ some berries having extra effects, not unlike fling.

Root Strike should be a grass quick attack. Not good, but solid.

Petal Guard - Interesting concept, but I'd rather it be a 5 pp substitute that doesn't take up HP and breaks with any move.


Sun May 23, 2010 4:20 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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labarith your version of spore storm reminds of an idea i had earlier.

basically redo tri attack, where, if a pokemon is weak to ice, fire, or electric, then tri attack will be super effective. You might have to drop the BP for balancing, but i don't know really.

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Sun May 23, 2010 8:59 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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Ajit wrote:
labarith your version of spore storm reminds of an idea i had earlier.

basically redo tri attack, where, if a pokemon is weak to ice, fire, or electric, then tri attack will be super effective. You might have to drop the BP for balancing, but i don't know really.

Similar, sure. But the idea was that it would be, effectively, 3 different attacks all bundled up.

Here's another idea that takes a similar fashion:
"Small Stuff" - 5pp When you select Small Stuff, you've effectively selected each other move the pokemon has with 30-40 (not sure which) or more base PP. So, for example, say you have a pokemon with "Scratch, Ember, and Quick Attack" and "Small Stuff". When you select Small Stuff, your pokemon qucik attacks, then Scratches the opponent, them Embers the opponent. It probably would reduce the PP of each of these moves by 1 (or more?) along with it's own PP. The good thing about this move is suddenly all of the "bad" moves a pokemon starters off with MIGHT not be bad anymore...

Similarly, we might have a move like this:
Sprinke - 5pp When you select Sprinkle, it selects another water move you know and adds 10 Power to it. Outside of battle, Sprinke can be used to water plants.


Sun May 23, 2010 9:15 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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ha pretty unique ideas there :)

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Sun May 23, 2010 9:47 pm
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Ajit wrote:
ha pretty unique ideas there :)

Unique is the name of the game. I mean, really, do we need 3 more quick-attack variants? How long until a fire extreme speed?


Sun May 23, 2010 10:13 pm
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labarith wrote:
Ajit wrote:
ha pretty unique ideas there :)

Unique is the name of the game. I mean, really, do we need 3 more quick-attack variants? How long until a fire extreme speed?


Yet you were the one who suggested Root Strike be a grass quick attack, whereas I only made it similar, not exactly the same with just a different typing.

And why make the Fruit/Berry Bomb similar to Fling if you want uniqueness?

Also, how do you say if a move is boring or not? It's all subjective, and moves are supposed to make sense (game-wise) first before providing excitement or whatever you will. Sure yours sound unique but what are you criteria to say a suggested move is boring?

And as for Petal Guard, I didn't quite understand what you said. Why let it break with any move? What then would be the sense of it?

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Mon May 24, 2010 6:32 am
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