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 Which came first, the Ho-oh or the Arceus? 
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This is just too logical to be confusing.

Arceus was born before the universe even existed. Ho-oh is a colorful bird. Still have any doubts on which came first?

The fact that Ho-oh is based on the japanese phoenix and reincarnated the legendary dogs doesn't give it any reason to be thought to come before Arceus. Arceus is older than the freaking universe, people, Ho-oh can't top that. :/

Dialga's a little more complicated, since the Pokédex says time began moving when it was born. As far as I know, you can't quite measure time or how old the universe is. There's a theory that says time is a fundamental part of the universe, so, by that, we assume Arceus came before Dialga, since it was born before the "container" (the universe). However, there's also a theory that states that time is an intelectual structure, so it's not a thing: according to that, we can't even place Dialga as something, because time wouldn't exist: all we have is a measuring system created by humans to sequence events, and I'm pretty sure Dialga is older than that.

However, according to the second theory, if time isn't just something that "flows", it could've already existed before the birth of Dialga, but just wasn't "moving". Assuming that as a possible thing, Dialga was born, time began to move, and then what? The universe was born? Or was time already part of the universe, even stopped? Either way, Arceus would've already been there, since it appeared before the universe. The question is, considering neither is infinite, which one is older: time or the universe? Can you even compare the two? I assume time and the universe can't be compared because they aren't equivalent structures/existances, but diverse "entities" (I see the universe as something physical, and time as metaphysical), so you can't exactly say whether Dialga or Arceus came first. I assume Arceus did, but taking in consideration different aspects (encounter level, encounter difficulty, species and other stuff, like ability).

Mew's kinda difficult too, since it possess the DNA of all Pokémon (and by all we include Arceus). If Mew really is the ancestor of all Pokémon, than it's even older than Arceus, which is older than the universe, making kitty the first one to appear. But, if Arceus is the God of all Pokémon, and Mew is simply their ancestor, doesn't that exclude Arceus' genetic code (if it has one) from Mew's DNA, since it would be technically "higher" than Mew? That's pretty much my view on it; I see Arceus creating the universe, and then the very first Pokémon, Mew, appearing: Dialga and Palkia sort of appear together with Arceus to create time and space (considering those to be fundamental parts of the universe; I have no idea if this "Arceus created Dialga and Palkia" thing is official or just an assumption).

So, regarding the original topic, yes, in my opinion Arceus came before Ho-oh.

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Sat May 10, 2008 11:50 am
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First was nothing. Then became Mew. Mew create Arceus. Arceus create Dialga, Palkia and Giratina. Then Dialga created time and Palkia create Space, in start they were just 5 creatures sitting of nowhere. Then Mew created all pokemon and Ho-oh. But Ho-oh then decide to make 3 more pokemmon (Raikou, Entei and Suicune) So there is 7 pokemon that aren't created by mew; Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Raikou, Entei, Suicune and Mew itself. But his must be increased to 8; Scientist create Mewtwo.

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Sat May 10, 2008 12:18 pm
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I'd say pretty confusing if {arceus} created time and {ho-oh} the Pokemon?
But ehh wasn't {celebi} the Pokemon of time?
Anyway I'd say {ho-oh} created {arceus} to make the time because {ho-oh} was to lame to do it :wink:


Sun May 11, 2008 9:24 am
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Bunny777 wrote:
I'd say pretty confusing if {arceus} created time and {ho-oh} the Pokemon?
But ehh wasn't {celebi} the Pokemon of time?
Anyway I'd say {ho-oh} created {arceus} to make the time because {ho-oh} was to lame to do it :wink:

Did you even read Galar's post at all? It definitely does not look like it.
And Celebi is not the Pokemon of time. Celebi merely has the ability to time-travel. That has been so ever since it was introduced in Johto. Dialga did not override or supercede Celebi's role in any way.

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Sun May 11, 2008 5:22 pm
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ho-oh came first because nintendo created it first.lol j.k.:) in the pokedex it says arceus was the first pokemon.

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Sat May 17, 2008 10:52 am
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Aquatrainer93 wrote:
ho-oh came first because nintendo created it first.


That's what I think about this!!
Arceus cannot just apear several years after the first Pokémon Game and say that it is the creator. Why haven't we heard about it before then?

My oppinion: NINTENDO is the God of Pokémon and the creator... hehe.

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Sat May 17, 2008 11:20 am
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^With that reasoning, you could say that Celebi is the lord of time (due to time travel), and Stantler, of all things, is the lord of space (the space between its horns is where reality is distorted).

That's not valid reasoning. You can't say that Ho-Oh created something because it came first.
Indeed, even in GSC, the Pokedex entries didn't mention Ho-Oh creating anything. Not ONCE. It brought the dogs back to life, but did not create them.

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In the meantime, here's some links to YouTube channels I like for their music:
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SmoothMcGroove (A cappella music)
YuGiOh4RealMen (Them Jugimanz)

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Sat May 17, 2008 1:04 pm
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{arceus} came first. then somehow mew got its DNA???

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Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:56 pm
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I think what happened with that is that Arceus created Mew to be the ancestor of all Pokemon, and after that put in it's own DNA so if anything ever happened to God, Mew would be 2nd in command to everything.

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Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:40 pm
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Hmm this is all very confusing....but really...would there be 1st or second when time did not exist? Without time, the past, the present and the future would all be occuring at the same time...as such, how can you be sure Arceus is first? :?


Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:24 am
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Galar seems to make the most sense here (I've followed the same pattern of thinking). If Dialga and Palkia were creators of time and space (base principles of our existence, so must have been created first). Arceus, described as the creator of all things, must be first because of it's claim to be a god. Mew must have been first, because of it's description as the source of all Pokemon DNA, so must have created Dialga, Palkia and Arceus.

Which of these is true? They all contradict each other! I have no idea where to start understanding it, but it IS just a game :P

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Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:07 pm
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A game it may be, but this subject is one that is fun and interesting to talk about

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Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:18 am
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A game it may be, but this subject is one that is fun and interesting to talk about

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Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:18 am
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Oh yeah, don't get me wrong I've been scratching my head over it for ages now! Perhaps Arceus isn't really a Pokemon, so it created Mew? Maybe it's just been classed as a Pokemon for the sake of the game?

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Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:39 am
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Arceus is definitely the first Pokemon to have existed. I'm in the Canalave Library right now, and it says the Pokemon world started as chaos..it could have been the start of a planet, or maybe all it was was a random storm going on somewhere. In the center of the storm (where all things 'become one'; I have no idea if that means anything or not), an egg appeared (falling down from the vortex, meaning the egg must have been created by the storm). Arceus hatched from this egg.

Now, Arceus obviously had to make the world happen, so he probably used the storm to help him shape it. After it was suitable for life, he created Palkia and Dialga from himself, making them the second and third Pokemon to exist. With them being there, space began to expand - meaning there was some sort of space before. Time had to be there from the start, but it had no impact on anything; now that Dialga existed, it actually had a meaning, making day and night and the like. No other Pokemon were created yet, making those three the longest-living Pokemon.

A little bit later, Arceus made three Pokemon from him once more - they appear to be the three lake Pokemon. Afterwards, he figured that the other five could make everything else on their own, so he went to sleep for a long while.

I don't know how the rest of the Pokemon popped up. I doubt that the five were meant to do anything other than what the Dex says they were made for, but maybe they put all of their powers together and made something, or maybe some sort of evolution like in our world took place. It's pretty unclear.

Mew is only the ancestor of all Pokemon in theory, as stated in the Dex. There's no definite proof that it contains the genetic code of every single Pokemon (and if it did, it either wouldn't contain the six that came into existence before it, or what I said about them putting all their powers together might be true).

Since Giratina is the renegade Pokemon, it must of done something that pissed off the five, so that's why it lives on the reverse side of the world. We don't know what he did (other than go against them), but, considering he shows up at cemeteries, he may have done something that ended the lives of many Pokemon, which means he must not have been one of the first Pokemon created. Maybe it doesn't mean anything.

Ho-Oh is just a pretty bird that lives at the end of rainbows. No real importance.

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Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:26 pm
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Hold on there....in reality, Arceus only came out in the 4th generation, which means the theory of how it created the Pokemon universe was only formed after the 1st few generations. This theory is new, and it contradicts the theory of Mew being the ancestor of all Pokemon. This is what's causing the confusion right now. But know this, Arceus was not known by anyone during the 1st generation because it wasn't even created by Nintendo at that time. Nintendo made the blunder of contradicting the storyline when they made Arceus the 1st Pokemon and the creator. For now, we should just take the different theories apart from each other because Nintendo probably didn't think of linking the storylines together when they created Arceus.

Nintendo didn't create the 1st generation and the theory of Mew being the 1st Pokemon Knowing the story of the 4th generation....Each generation has its own unique story, Nintendo did not create the stories with the idea of linking them together because there was no preceding story to link with when they created generation after generation. Can you link a story with one that hasn't been created?

The contradiction was inevitable because the preceding generations were not foreseen by Nintendo producers....they could not make the orginal storyline link with future generation storylines because they didn't know what the future generations' stories would be like. Neither could they make the the future storylines link with the original one because the stories were too different.

Now can you guys see why an effort to link the theories together is simply futile? The theories were created separately, not with the intention of supporting each other because it was quite impossible to do so without a great change in either of the different stories' storylines. :wink:


Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:36 pm
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Well, yeah, Arceus making the world is also a theory, but it's just the one I agree with more, and it does get a whole lot more attention. And just because it and the creation myths were introduced later in the series, doesn't mean that they're not what really happened.

Maybe they are linked, but there are several foggy parts; Mew being the ancestor of all Pokemon is obviously the most unclear. But in the myths in the library, they don't ever mention Mew. We might get some more hints about it in Platinum.

And, there's the thing with Giratina's 'Origin Form' in Platinum. That makes me think that it could be one of the earlier Pokemon, but it was most likely not one of the first they created, as it doesn't control anything. If it had, Nintendo would have probably elaborated on that more, but they might do that in the later games.

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Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:03 pm
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There's one theory you guys haven't considered yet.
Couldn't things just be present without the 5 beings creating them? Arceus existed before the Universe did, couldn't other Pokemon be too? If Arceus can be there just like that, why can't other pokemon be too? Just by saying it existed before the universe did doesn't mean it's the only one. Rayquaza, Kyogre, Groudon and Mew...they may all have already existed before Arceus created the 5 beings, no one said that EVERYTHING was created by the 5 beings right?

The problem now is, we don't have a link between the stories of the different generations at all. So why can't there be individual beings who weren't created by the 5 beings but were there from the start? Why must Arceus be the Orgin of completely everything?

Mew may have been the 1st Pokemon to live in the world that the the legendaries created, but it doesn't mean that Mew was created by the legendaries.

Oh, and 1 very important thing about Mew that you guys must take note of. When Mew first came out, the Pokedex explained that it had the DNA of ALL Pokemon. Now tell me, during that time, ALL refered to how many Pokemon exactly? When Nintendo first said this, they Didn't consider things about why Mew has Arceus's DNA because Arceus did not exist at that time, neither did any of the future generations. Therefore, we are not supposed to ponder over stuff like "why does Mew have Arceus DNA then?" because it wasn't Nintendo's intention. A small mistake probably, but it's one that can't be repaired and should be ignored.

I believe then that it is safe to assume Mew doesn't really have the DNA of all Pokemon because the writers of the story were only referring to that generation of Pokemon when inventing Mew's info and did not forsee the future generations as well as the confusion they would cause because of that.
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Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:19 am
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It says in the dex that scientists believe Mew to have the DNA of all Pokemon, but it is unlikly that these scientists could find DNA of Arceus/Diaga/Palkia, they probably only looked at normal pokemon. I think Arceus created Mew and made it able to learn many types of moves, so Mew could create many types of pokemon. Mew then created all of the non-legendary pokemon to populate the world, and this is why it has all of their DNA.


Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:36 am
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This is how i understand things from what i know.
{arceus} formed the universe with 1000 arms.From it came {dialga} which caused time to flow. and {palkia} and space then expanded. After those two, it created {azelf} to keep the world in balance, {mesprit} to give emotions,and {uxie} to give knowledge. {shaymin} was created for gratitude. {darkrai} was born to give everyone dreams. {mew} is the ancestor, so all the others are just descendents of {mew}.
{regigigas} was believed to have towed the continents with ropes. {cresselia} represents the crescent moon. {giratina} must have something to do with death because it lives in an ancient cemetary. {ho-oh} created {suicune} {raikou} and {entei}. {lugia} rules the sea. {groudon} raised the continents and {kyogre} formed the seas. {rayquaza} rules the sky. The other three regis must have separated to conceal {regigigas} since you need all three to catch it. {mewtwo} was then cloned from {mew} to be the stongest of all pokemon. The three birds guard their respective elemental titans in Pokemon 2000.
Thats all I know right know and i hope it helps


Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:13 pm
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Sapphirath wrote:

Couldn't things just be present without the 5 beings creating them? Arceus existed before the Universe did, couldn't other Pokemon be too? If Arceus can be there just like that, why can't other pokemon be too? Just by saying it existed before the universe did doesn't mean it's the only one. Rayquaza, Kyogre, Groudon and Mew...they may all have already existed before Arceus created the 5 beings, no one said that EVERYTHING was created by the 5 beings right?


Wow. For whatever reason, that gives me an image of Groudon floating randomly through space, spinning, while he tries to reach a bowl of cornchips, and he is saying "I really want... some of these chips..." while rayquaza is chasing its tail like a dog, and Kyogre is swimming through the nothingness. I get really weird mental images/videos sometimes. I think the corn chips part may be because of this one video on http://www.homestarrunner.com.

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Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:21 pm
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I think {arceus} came first.


Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:08 pm
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I don't know about anyone else, but I would say this is a good pokemon theory.

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Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:12 am
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i believe arceus came first. and when it was first it was in a purgatory like realm and it was like being asleep, yet rather than just dreams, it was having conscious thoughts. it didnt feel/see/smell/taste/hear anything because there was nothing there. and then i think it created mew dialga and palkia and giratina all at once. then the 3 dragon things made the physical universe itself. then all that other stuff that i am much too lazy to get into about the world itself. and then i'm not sure whether arceus or mew created all the pokemon. but mew is connected to all the pokemon cause it has all their DNA. it could be that arceus created all of them through mew, like mew was a channel of its power or something like that. and ho-oh created the 3 dogs. but what did Lugia do? thats what i've been wondering....

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Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:33 pm
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lugia keeps balance between powers of the legendary birds, perhaps he created them as well

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