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 The State of the Community and Power Abuse 
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Art Commentator
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FireStarter wrote:
DatVu wrote:
FireStarter wrote:
The problem is that the majority of people who reply to threads are either trying to up their post count with a "yeah, i agree wit you", or lack the capacity to discuss anything in a sensible manner.

If people aren't interested in posting for this very reason, then everyone might as well give up.


Which is exactly what I've done, giving up and letting it all go until the stupidity eventually grows to the point that every worthwhile member the of community decides to leave.


What are you suggesting? That you want Psypoke to close down, and that all the decent members should abandon the site? Please, PLEASE tell me that was sarcasm.

You seem to be suggesting that you dislike being on these forums. If I may say so, if you hate the site so much, how come you still come here regularly?

What I don't get is how sites such as TCoD, which are about exactly the same topic as this forum, don't seem to get all the idiots who can barely type.

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Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:14 pm
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FireStarter wrote:
DatVu wrote:
FireStarter wrote:
The problem is that the majority of people who reply to threads are either trying to up their post count with a "yeah, i agree wit you", or lack the capacity to discuss anything in a sensible manner.

If people aren't interested in posting for this very reason, then everyone might as well give up.


Which is exactly what I've done, giving up and letting it all go until the stupidity eventually grows to the point that every worthwhile member the of community decides to leave.


Reading this from a person who ranks directly below an admin is so reassuring. I suppose you mean Psypoke is basically a lost cause. That's comforting.

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Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:20 pm
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Mr. Saturn wrote:
Latios wrote:

The forum changes becuase of the rapid growth we've had from the beginning till now. Out off all the new members who join there's always going to be an idiot.


I think you misunderstand. People aren't discouraged over "an idiot." We are discouraged over SEVERAL idiots. People who need constant reminders and warnings about things, from pointless spamming to, say, not listening to mod requests about signatures.

A lot of the restrictions we have put in place is because people have been abusive of their priveleges. We had to crack down on sigs because people had large ones with like 10 animated gifs in them. We had to crack down on alternate accounts because of people abusing the "Starting Psybucks" gift we give to new users so they can have more internet money.

Don't think this is just about one or two people. If it were, wouldn't you think these people would be promptly straightened out, and we'd all go about our merry business? No, this is the majority. People who can post maturely are the minority here. This is what we are concerned and disheartened about.


Well that wasn't really my point. What I was trying to say is out of a group of let's say ten people,there's always going to be an idiot and by how large the population is that means there will be more idiots. Now do you catch my drift.

Also DatVu I agree with Blackwind,instead of leaving the site why not try and prevent the problem by being a better member and encouraging others instead of giving up.

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Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:30 pm
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Quote:
I don't think any type of announcement, new rule, or reminder, no matter how often or how sincerely stated will change the state of the site. Pokémon is a subject that will attract a rather young crowd, and the forums will typically reflect the (im)maturity of these younger members.


That is true, but from my view, it seems like these people are encouraged to do what they do by certain other members, whereas, in my opinion, it should be the opposite.

Quote:
If you honestly think that there aren't enough good topics, start some yourself. There will be a higher number of sensible replies than the idiotic ones.

It only takes one post to destroy an entire topic.

Quote:
But I share GQ's opinion - there are some Gym Leaders that dismiss others topics etc with little consideration. I cannot give an example without "landing someone in it," but I thought that you might want to hear this.

More recently, it's become a case of "It's so obvious as to why I'm locking/editing/deleting this topic because it's so stupid. Why should I bother anymore?".

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The majority of the forumgoers are incapable of debating a touchy topic for more than one page.

Precisely.

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If you are concerned about how much bandwidth is going to cost by number of replies you should have considered that before starting a forum.

We aren't. We are concerned with amount of idiocy, which is costing a lot more than bandwidth.

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And the reason that the people are "strict" here is probably because they need to be

We actually aren't as strict as some other sites, but over the years, we've had to become stricter and stricter because of the way things are going. For example, signatures used to be a few pictures (at most, three) that decorated the end of your post. Now they're gigantic banners advertising a shop or site, and they span the entire screen. But enough about sigs, this is about strictness.

Quote:
If people aren't interested in posting for this very reason, then everyone might as well give up. Simply saying how this forum is immature won't cause a change in people or make them enlightened to posting more thought out replies.

I guess you're right in a way, but if those who read this act and change, then surely there will be some positive improvements in general.

My main point in the first post was that there needs to be better communication between the members of the community and the forum staff. That's something that is incredibly easy to improve.

And secondly, after some discussion with the staff, we are going to work together to improve the quality of the forums. A community effort is needed.

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Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:32 pm
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It does take only one or two posts to wreck a topic. Posts are made in chronological order, and people have the tendency to respond to posts directly above theirs, which in some cases may be off-topic. I guess the thread about Hurricane Katrina would be such an example.

Regarding how strict the moderators are, I do agree that we tend to be strict sometimes, perhaps even stricter than other forums. However, while I don't know if this applies to every single person among the Psypoke Staff, I do know that most mods welcome members to contact them if they feel that their topic has been treated unfairly. nfield would be an extreme example, in a good sense; I myself am not motivated to post such things in every topic I lock =p

When it comes to PM-ing mods, please do so only when it's necessary. It is incredibly annoying to receive PMs asking about things to which the answer can be answered very easily if the person has bothered to look around for a bit. In any case, even if we do not respond to your PM, we actually do read them (in most cases), so do not feel that you're being ignored.

Well that was more of a personal rant than a response to the posts above me actually =/

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Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:18 pm
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Being part of a young crowd myself (I'm only 11 if none of you knew), it makes me feel most of the blame goes to myself. Although it doesn't. And yet people my age simply won't listen, so altering the forums in such a way is next to impossible. :/ Yet, we CAN cut it down. Unfortunatly, not by a lot.

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Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:56 pm
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I have only been in one thing that may have been called "power abuse", which was when a moderator edited one of my posts just because I put I line of small text at the bottom and changed it into large text. But oh well, it's not that serious. I just edited it and removed the tags altogether. But one thing, that is annoying, in my own opinion, is when any topic that had their main question awnsered (I know I spelt that incorrectly.) are locked, making it so that it's impossible to continue discussion. Maybe due to the off-topic posts and the spamming I've heard so much about?

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Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:22 pm
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The amount of time and effort put into the campaign about "power abuse" sickens me.

If you are sensitive to stuff like "power abuse"...why continue to linger on it and whine about it without resolving it? A sensitive person should know that lingering on matters that bug and upset them only make things worse...

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Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:43 pm
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Regarding Mods: Although I am not a mod here at psypokes, I am one on some other forums that I post at. That means that I have done much of what these guys do to help the forums stay in some order. Let me tell you: When there are a lot of people who spam up topics, it can sometimes take a long time to fix. Do you think that sNOwBaLL, nfield, TK, and any other mods/admin here actually LIKE cleaning up after everyone here? If I may quote from Benjamin's sig:

Benjamin's sig wrote:
It's only funny to have a couple of forum idiots; there's too many now ;.;


Regarding spam: I am a person who sometimes scrolls down to the bottom of the main index screen to see who is on at the current time. Down there, it also shows the newest registered user. There have been many times when I go to a topic that they have posted in and see that that newest user has 50+ posts. If I go check their profile, I often see that many of their posts were double-posting or even triple-posting, and are along the lines of:

Quote:
Yeah i TOTALLY agree wit u about hat Hey whatif THIShappend thtbe kool :lol: :lol: k cya :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:


And that was being nice on my part.
I don't understand why more topics can't be more like... like this one. As you can see, we have managed to put together a nice, neat discussion about some of the important situations about Psypokes. There hasn't been any flamming, cussing, yelling, or anything else that could be considered bad that I can find.

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Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:00 pm
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Radio Willy wrote:
I have only been in one thing that may have been called "power abuse", which was when a moderator edited one of my posts just because I put I line of small text at the bottom and changed it into large text.


That's not "abuse." The moderators were getting tired of everyone doing that, and it was getting annoying. The same people kept doing it, so some of the moderators changed the tags.

Radio Willy wrote:
But one thing, that is annoying, in my own opinion, is when any topic that had their main question awnsered (I know I spelt that incorrectly.) are locked, making it so that it's impossible to continue discussion.


Because some people just post "ya lisen 2 th guy above me hes rite". Also, usually the policy is it's locked, but if you want to continue the discussion, just PM a moderator of that forum. We won't deny your request if you want to have a serious discussion about it.

As TK said before...sometimes, locking the same topic over and over and over and over again gets tedious. You can't really expect us to give a reason everytime, especially the reason it is locked or deleted is so obivous.

Then, there is the problem with General Discussion. Honestly, I don't see much wrong with some of the topics, it's just threads like this that are so stupid and immature. And then there are threads that never die.

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Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:06 pm
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I suppose I should stop by and say hi for this, no? I'm going to be blunt about this:

Do I lock topics? Yes.
Do I delete posts? Yes.
Do I delete entire topics? Yes.
Do I always list a reason? No.

Why? Well, for one, I can't exactly leave you a reason when I delete the post/topic. Sure, I could send a PM, but I only delete when it's something rediculous. For example, if you revive a 3-week old topic by saying nothing more than "ya i agree," I'm not going to lock the topic, I'm not going to tell you not do that, I'm just going to delete your post and let the topic disappear again. Why? Because when you log in the next time and see that your post is missing, it sends a pretty clear message, doesn't it?

I've never been a fan of locking blatant spam. Why? Because where's the punishment in that? Most spam is there simply for people to get their post count up because that's some sort of ego boost for them. If I delete your posts, your post count goes back DOWN. It doesn't do that with a lock. Deleting a post provides a real consequence to your actions.

If it's just one little post, I really don't bother saying anything. If I log on and find that one person has spammed up an entire forum, I'll delete all the spam and send a PM. There should be a few of you out there who have received these in the past. If you still have them, read over them again. If you believe I was stepping out of bounds in that PM, please tell me, because I believe that I was being firm in my stance on the matter without being rude about it. I will gladly hash things out with you if you felt that I was being rude.

As a moderator, my job is not to make things difficult for you. My job is to keep this place as neat and orderly as I can. I honestly believe that I do the best I possibly can do. Have I made mistakes? Sure. But if you ever feel like I'm mistreating you, please, PLEASE tell me. Don't just sit there, brooding over a misunderstanding.

I know it's a joke that I'm a scary person and this unforgiving mod, but really, if you honestly believe that I'm out to get you, just talk to me, because I'm not. I'm all for joking about this persona people have given me, but I'm not here to scare you into strict obedience of the rules down to every dotting of your i's. I'm here to try to keep this place a well-oiled machine.

Why? Because I've been "here" in whatever way, shape, or form "here" existed, since back before Gold and Silver came out. I haven't played the newer games. I don't know anything about how they work, and I remember very little from RBY/GSC. But I'm still here. It's not because of the games that I stayed. The games are what brought me here; the people are the reason I stay. I remember what this place used to be like; the "glory days." It makes me sad to have to talk about them in the past tense. I honestly believe that we can make this place into the great community it was when I first came here years ago.

But to do that, we all need to change. We need to all step up and be a little more mature, and we need to not encourage people who are being immature. Don't reply to spam; don't feed the troll. Don't become a dramallama; if you have a problem, let someone know.

There's a new generation of games coming out soon, right? I'm not sure what the release date should be, but I'd guess in a few months. That's right about how things were when I first came here. Let's see if we can't have this place running like it used to by the time those games come out. I think that would be the best for all of us, individually, and as a community, don't you?

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Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:18 pm
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Jigglypuff wrote:
I've never been a fan of locking blatant spam. Why? Because where's the punishment in that? Most spam is there simply for people to get their post count up because that's some sort of ego boost for them. If I delete your posts, your post count goes back DOWN. It doesn't do that with a lock. Deleting a post provides a real consequence to your actions.


Oh my, the number of posts I have made might have insignificantly dropped...

But really, I have definitely have not been with PsyPoke long enough to give a reasonable opinion on any power abuse here. Infact the only Mod I have seen post regularly is Snowball, in Team Hydro's Forum. I understand and respect that a moderators job is to enforce the rules and I follow them accordingly as to not waste their time.

For me, what really matters is how much people respect me on the forums, not how many times I have pushed the submit button. Generally you seem like a nice group of people, intent on good will. PsyPoke has excellent resources and I could guarantee that any valid question I submit could be answered sensibly.

I definitely intend to stick around.

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Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:37 am
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It would be kinda nice if more than some of the staff poked around and posted here and there a bit more, instead of only being here for modatorial purposes. That way, not only would we get "intelligent" replies from which younger viewers could model their posts on, but it also gives the community the opportunity to get to know each other a little better and therefore strengthen it a little.

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Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:28 am
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EDIT: I ditto DragonPheonix's post. =]

Hmm, a lots happened in two days I forgot to check around.#

I might make a new grammer thread for all the under 15s with band grammer to read. It was a bit of a successful thread last time to be honest.

Anyway, my only thing I dont like about Psypoke is the moderating. Im not actually that annoyed at all, its just something that could be worked on.

Some of the mods never post and dont get too interactive. I think they need to be a bit more active, some of them anyway, half the mods are great. =]
Moderators are looked up to and have the job to keep their board(s) running smoothly.
Some moderators have been not abusing the 'moderator' rank, but simply just doing pointless things that get on members nerves.

Like some mods think its funny to edit a perfectly fine discussion into Tacos taco and more tacos.

They could actually partake in some human discussion is all I can say. Not taco discussion.

Of course, it can't get strict, I like a bit of old fun here and there. =]

Etc etc etc.

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Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:21 am
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I for one, loving this forums and being a some-what active member, have never seen any power abuse. Let me repeat that: NEVER! I have seen plenty of whining babies because someone locked their topic for whatever reason. I have even received PMs from my fellow members saying things that I will not repeat. I then reported this to a mod of the board: Krisp. Did she just sit there and do nothing! No! She did what a mod is supposed to do: resolve the situation in one way or another.

There have been other case with other mods and even admins that I have experienced. I don't know what everyone is whining about, but just get over it you big babies!!

Oh, even though I couldn't participate in the trivia,

thankies to TK for doing such a wonderful job for our forums.

and to Amphy for doing the forums. :wink:

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Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:20 am
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rubypoke wrote:
Like some mods think its funny to edit a perfectly fine discussion into Tacos taco and more tacos..


They turn discussions into Mexican food?? Uhm, I'm probably missing the reference here. Care to explain? :D

Okay, here's my opinion on this topic:

As you can see from the date I joined and my post count, I'm new here. And simply by reading the rules and the FAQ I noticed that this forum is much stricter than any other forum I'm on, I agree with x0x0Stephie on that. And I agree with her that it makes posting uncomfortable, constantly having to think if something will be locked or deleted (i.e. I'm used to posting a simple "thank you" when someone helps me with a problem, but judging from the rules and FAQ here it's considered spam).

But like I said, I got that from simply reading the rules and FAQ. Which I did before I signed up. So it's not as if I was caught unawares, I knew from the get go that I can't be as laid back as I'm used to in posting here so I'm not.

So to me this is not much of an issue. But I can see how it's an issue to those who've been here longer and remember "the good old days". I hope the forum can work through it.

What I'm curious about is where what underlying problem is. I've been on larger forums than this one, but none suffered from the spamming, locking and deleting of topics like this one. Is that really because of the young age of many posters? Or could there be something else (sorry I can't contribute about what that might be, I haven't been here long enough to figure that out)? Maybe if you figure out why this forum suffers from these problems you can deal with it more effectively.


Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:01 am
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rubypoke wrote:


Some of the mods never post and dont get too interactive. I think they need to be a bit more active, some of them anyway, half the mods are great. =]
Moderators are looked up to and have the job to keep their board(s) running smoothly.




Personally, I don't feel that I need to post to do my job. Besides, like you said, the mods' duty is to keep things running smoothly. I don't have to post to do that. My duty is to deal with those who break the rules through warnings, lockings, and deletions, and prevent rules from being broken through the same methods. I answer questions pertaining to forum rules, or reply to certain alerts from members if something slips by me.

Mods aren't here to be your friends. They can be if they so choose, but that's not their job. Too many people around here seem to think that's the case, and become colossal suckups because of it. We may be polite, but that doesn't necessarily mean we want to be your friend.

That goes for anyone on this site. Nobody should feel they HAVE to reply to a thread, or HAVE to talk to someone, because you don't. If you feel like you HAVE to reply to a thread, it's either because you have something to truly contribute, or you want that post count up.

Quality over quantity. I don't post unless I am posting a reason for a moderating action, or if I feel I have something to contribute to a thread. If I do anything more, it is, quite essentially, just a "post count +1" post. I don't know about you, but I don't feel the need to validate my existence with numbers on the internet.

If someone is going to look up to me on this forum, it's going to be for WHAT I say when I post, not how often I do so.


Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:09 pm
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No one said anything about post count - we just believe that this community would be a little more enjoyable if some of the staff contributed more instead of being here just to keep it looking polished and shiny. We're (ie the non-staff) not forcing you to post either - ultimately that is your desicion to make, and if you feel that your duty here is solely to make sure the rules are laid down in place rather than participate - then by all means continue in the way in which to are contributing to the community presently.

Personally, I think an area of which we can improve on is communication between staff and non-staff, but yet if you keep insisting on keeping to yourself then there is no way in which this can ever be achieved.

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Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:34 pm
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DragonPhoenix wrote:
No one said anything about post count - we just believe that this community would be a little more enjoyable if some of the staff contributed more instead of being here just to keep it looking polished and shiny. We're (ie the non-staff) not forcing you to post either - ultimately that is your desicion to make, and if you feel that your duty here is solely to make sure the rules are laid down in place rather than participate - then by all means continue in the way in which to are contributing to the community presently.

Personally, I think an area of which we can improve on is communication between staff and non-staff, but yet if you keep insisting on keeping to yourself then there is no way in which this can ever be achieved.


I by no means insist on keeping to myself. If I were, I wouldn't be posting right now, would I? I do, however, insist on keeping my job as a mod and my interaction with the community separate. When I post, feel free to agree, disagree, ask questions, make comments as you please, as long as it's within the rules. Basically, treat me with the same respect as you would any other member. Don't put me on a pedastal. I'm not a god, I'm just a mod.


Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:47 pm
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You can keep 'Your job as a mod and your interaction with the community separate,' but maybe the mods shoudn't always be mods. They don't have to search every topic 24/7 for topics to lock or posts to delete(I don't mean power abuse) I think some mods might need to bring the 'interaction with the community' level up. You said yourself that you should be treated like any other member of the community, and for people to do that, mods probably should blend in a bit more by contributing to discussion. It would make people more comfortable, and maybe even more likely to tell you guys if something was wrong, instead of just going "MODS R ABUSING POWER IM LEEVING PSYPOK 4EVER!!!!111!!11"

That was just adding to what DP and Rubypoke said.

I do think that the forum was better when I first joined, after that, A bunch of n00bs started showing up. Some of them have changed, but the majority, I think, are still n00bs. I think this is sad, but I don't know what we can do about it.

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dragonite wrote:
They don't have to search every topic 24/7 for topics to lock or posts to delete(I don't mean power abuse) I think some mods might need to bring the 'interaction with the community' level up.


Oh yes...because I search every topic, every forum, 24 hours a day, and don't sleep, don't go to school, and I don't do other things with my life. Same with the other mods.

dragonite wrote:
mods probably should blend in a bit more by contributing to discussion.


I don't take part in discussion, because like this thread, it involves reading over long posts, and replying to them. I usually only reply in a thread if I feel it needs to be said.

dragonite wrote:
and maybe even more likely to tell you guys if something was wrong, instead of just going "MODS R ABUSING POWER IM LEEVING PSYPOK 4EVER!!!!111!!11"


Not really.

dragonite wrote:
I do think that the forum was better when I first joined, after that, A bunch of n00bs started showing up.


I believe the community was in the same state as it was when you first joined.

dragonite wrote:
Some of them have changed, but the majority, I think, are still n00bs. I think this is sad, but I don't know what we can do about it.


'n00b' is a horrible term to describe someone.

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Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:46 pm
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I guess I'll share my opinion. I don't think mods abuse their powers that badly, they don't lock every single topic, or we wouldn't be able to post. On the other hand, sometimes they lock topics that didn't need to be locked, and other times, they lock topics correctly. In truth, mods aren't all bad, but I'm not a mod, and I don't see every topic or discussion thread, so I don't know.
Then, adding to the use of the word "n00b". I remember (and hope I remember correctly) this word originated from the word "newbie" (strangely enough) and became a word supposedly describing a new person to some form of community whom most people didn't like in some way. I don't think anyone can be descibed as a "n00b". I think that people who are called by this term are really people who basically don't understand things in a community, and aren't used to the rules of the community since they probably haven't had the time to fit in. For example, let's say some guy with a username of Bob joins Psypokes. Bob visits a few topics, and wonders what some topics are about. Not seeing the help section of the forums, nor seeing any topics on help, Bob makes a new topic asking about it. When this happens, this is when people begin to consider the fact that this person, Bob, may be a "n00b". Okay. Let's say that when Bob makes this topic, he isn't a whiz at grammar, and spells a few words wrong as well as making his post a bit confusing with grammar mistakes. Reading the post, he thinks his post makes perfect sense. However, a certain amount of people reading the post will get the idea that Bob is a "n00b", and treat him unfairly. Another handful of people will post a link to a help topic, or link him to the rules.
Basically, that's how I think the idea of "n00b" was created. It is only my honest opinion, and if anyone thinks I am wrong, do not falsely judge me or comment on me, as this is my opinion.

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Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:04 am
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Pokemon Ranger
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:39 pm
Posts: 796
Location: San Francisco
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Krisp wrote:

Oh yes...because I search every topic, every forum, 24 hours a day, and don't sleep, don't go to school, and I don't do other things with my life. Same with the other mods.

I was exaggerating -_- I meant that the mods don't have to search the topics the whole time they are on psypoke.


Krisp wrote:

I don't take part in discussion, because like this thread, it involves reading over long posts, and replying to them. I usually only reply in a thread if I feel it needs to be said.

This is how other non-mod members take part in discussion and keep the forum active.

Krisp wrote:

Not really.


Well, thats my opinion. Mods make me uncomfortable sometimes, because I seeing a mod participate in a discussion is rare. (btw, I'm not complaining, I'm actually very grateful of you guys) Thats just me.

Krisp wrote:

I believe the community was in the same state as it was when you first joined.

I believe there was a few less rule-breaking-people.

Krisp wrote:

'n00b' is a horrible term to describe someone.


I'm sorry.

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Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:25 pm
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Lite Four
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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:44 am
Posts: 645
Location: Houston, TX
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I havent logged in and really sit down and read topics like I used to, for a few reason one being I work fulltime (main reason I closed my graphic shop).

But in my absence I can tell that the forums as degraded in Quality, the quality of post as fell even more. For example a Topic about your favorite pokemon went from " Well my favorite PKMN is Pikachu because of his speed and electricity..." to " My favorite PKMN is Pikachu ^_^!!!111!!11!one!" and thats how a majority of post are. Post went from "this is my opinion and why", to "I agree", "cool", "yep".... theres no why anymore so its hard to understand why you made the post.

Before if I saw a violation of the forum rules I would edit the post and then edit in an exact section of the rules that was violated. I stop doing that when the same member would break the same rules. so now I just edit in a quick reason, which is sometimes edit out by the user and put back to the way it was so i'll delete the post. I used to lock topics and add a why and the message PM me with a valid reason to unlock it.

I'll take it that im doing a good job as a Mod because I havent reciaved any PM regarding my actions if Positive or Negative.

~Darkk

Also if you look at my signature there is links to the Forum rules and psypoke rules which is also on the top of every page in the forum.

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Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:49 pm
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Pokemon Ranger
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Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:27 pm
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Location: Canada
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Oh yes everyone is like that and it's only the mods are the ones who NEVER screw up and when something goes wrong it's seems to be everyone else's fault.Because I'm sure when you guys joined your first forum you guys did the exact same thing that the majority of members do.And Dragonite is right the mods/admins should try to contribute more to topics rather than go on a locking/editing spree.Also for the people who are getting angry over Psypokes has so many idiots there so dumb,as long as you live on this planet you will ALWAYS see idiots and meet idiots too.And Darkkend not every single member posts like that.

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Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:31 pm
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