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 Improving/Balancing Out Moves 
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Dragon Tamer
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puck269 wrote:
labarith wrote:
puck269 wrote:
So you think the ability of Water Absorb, or the electricity equivalent is too complicated for children to figure out? The precedent is already there.

Did you just compare guessing the pokemon ability, which is at MAX a 1 out of 2 possibility, to guessing which natures your opponent's pokemon have?


Despite all your examples of.. well.. whatever you were talking about.. I was referring to the precedent for having a move that healed the other pokemon, which AEP had mentioned seemed "unusual" like it didn't happen. And really, in competitive battling most of the time you can guess the opposing pokemon has one of two natures.. which is about as equal chances of guessing if some pokemon have the "absorb" ability.

Oh... that's less absurd. My bad.

That said, can you see how making nature such a big part of a move could be a problem?

That said, here's a possibility -
"Move that Cares about Natures" - 10pp - ~ does 70 damage to a pokemon. If it has a nature that + Attack, 10% chance of effect 1. If it has a nature that -attack, 10% chance of effect 2, ... and do on for +1 and -1 each stat.

This way the attack varies based off of the opponent's nature without you really having to guess the nature. The differences is in their after effects.

If you wanted it to be more powerful, make it 5pp, do 20-40 damage, and have a 100% chance of doing both additional effects based on the nature.
This variation, in particular, benifits from you knowing the nature, but is generally worth the risk if you don't.


Fri May 28, 2010 9:21 pm
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Ace Trainer
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puck269 wrote:
So you think the ability of Water Absorb, or the electricity equivalent is too complicated for children to figure out? The precedent is already there. The games have been getting increasingly more complicated battle system wise each generation. Gen V will increase it even more.


Not arguing with your evidence, puck, but I've never used Water Absorb. The reason I call it unusual is because I haven't seen it. Admittedly, I'm halfway between caring extremely about it (due to my time here) and being a casual gamer, but I'm still the latter.

To me, the move would be no more than a guessing game. At least labarith's modified idea would make it easier to use that kind of a move.

AEPMT :mrgreen: ;) 8-)

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Sat May 29, 2010 9:37 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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I still think there needs to be a way to balance out early moves like "Ember" and the like. The Technician ability is a good way to do so (1.5x each level 60 or under move), but here are some more ways of doing it:

Pokemon Ability "Double Header" (exclusive to pokemon w/ 2 heads and a limited movepool) - Whenever a pokemon selects a move, they do that move twice (using 2 PPs, and yes the second one might miss).
Problem: Pokemon with this ability pretty much can't have any really good moves. Indeed, moves like "Agility" become fairly impressive on guys w/ this ability.

"Sweat the Small Stuff" (move, discussed elsewhere) - When you select this move, it selects all moves the pokemon has w/ pps of 30 or more, and has the pokemon use them (using up the pps, even if the move misses).

"Move-based" conditions for learning new moves:
Let's say Magmar, at level 50, if it knows Ember, can learn the move "Ember MAX" which automatically replaces Ember (no questions asked) and is a doubly effective Ember w/ the same PPs.
Or
Let's say Move Tutor X is willing to replace certain moves with other moves - for example, if you bring them something w/ Ember, he will make them forget ember and teach them "Fire Ball" or something, where Fire Ball is an undeniably better fire move, but with less PPs (since it's optional, it shouldn't be functionally better than Ember like "Ember MAX" would be).


Sat May 29, 2010 11:22 pm
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labarith wrote:
I still think there needs to be a way to balance out early moves like "Ember" and the like. The Technician ability is a good way to do so (1.5x each level 60 or under move), but here are some more ways of doing it:

Pokemon Ability "Double Header" (exclusive to pokemon w/ 2 heads and a limited movepool) - Whenever a pokemon selects a move, they do that move twice (using 2 PPs, and yes the second one might miss).
Problem: Pokemon with this ability pretty much can't have any really good moves. Indeed, moves like "Agility" become fairly impressive on guys w/ this ability.

"Sweat the Small Stuff" (move, discussed elsewhere) - When you select this move, it selects all moves the pokemon has w/ pps of 30 or more, and has the pokemon use them (using up the pps, even if the move misses).

"Move-based" conditions for learning new moves:
Let's say Magmar, at level 50, if it knows Ember, can learn the move "Ember MAX" which automatically replaces Ember (no questions asked) and is a doubly effective Ember w/ the same PPs.
Or
Let's say Move Tutor X is willing to replace certain moves with other moves - for example, if you bring them something w/ Ember, he will make them forget ember and teach them "Fire Ball" or something, where Fire Ball is an undeniably better fire move, but with less PPs (since it's optional, it shouldn't be functionally better than Ember like "Ember MAX" would be).


I like some of the ideas. I like the double use ability, seems like a new wrinkle. I wouldn't limit it though to double-headed pokemon, but those that are fast or small. I would use it as a way to make UU pokemon, or pre-evo's a lot more common. Think about, instead of evolving a pokemon, say like farfetched, you give him the "Double Strike" ability which allows him to use two moves in his movepool at once. Instead of making a worthless evolution, you just made Farfetch'd a potential force to be reckon'd with.

As for the "ember fix" I'm less thrilled by it. I kinda don't see the point. It really doesn't balance the move out, just forces you to hold onto the move, or move-remember it, until you are able to get the "more powerful" version. Not only that, seems like you could do the same thing just creating a different move and just having a particular pokemon learn it.. or it being one of those moves that a evolved pokemon "learns" prior to the level it evolved.

If you think about it, a lot of the "early" moves like ember are balanced out with the stronger moves. Sometimes those early moves are actually better. This works out with things like PP. Take a move like Surf for example. The power isn't nearly as great as Hydro Pump, but when you put in the amount of combined damage and the better accuracy.. you notice that a lot more people would rather have Surf on their water pokemon, than they would Hydro Pump (mind you, this example was prior to the physical/special split.. I don't want to bother looking it up to see if it still holds).

The best way I see in improving the early moves would be to make their contest/pokeatholon equivalents more powerful in that mini-game than the stronger more powerful moves. Then make the contest/pokeatholons mean more.

The other thing that can happen, is push the most powerful moves to be learned at much higher levels.. even for baby pokemon. Right now, there are hardly ANY moves that can't be learned on a pokemon prior level 60. The trend is also to be pushing more powerful moves up to be learned earlier. This kinda makes the point of leveling up your pokemon past level 50 pointless, especially in the day and age of pokemon being reset to 50 in battles.


Sun May 30, 2010 8:49 am
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Dragon Tamer
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All things being equal, early moves might have more PP, but they're less powerful overall. I mean, really, has ANYONE ever opted for Ember over Flamethrower (if not for mock false-swipe-ness)?

The idea was to make these moves "count". Now, yes, I don't like the "Ember MAX" idea, but the idea would be that you need to keep Ember until you get Ember Max, which is something you'd like.

I'd much rather have double-strikers who only learned weak attacks, or "compound moves" like "Sweat the Small Stuff" to make Ember more viable.


Sun May 30, 2010 4:31 pm
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A move I would like to see weakened: Close Combat.

I'm not going to go into a really deep discussion about it, but with all of the high-attack fighting types (which is a great offensive type) taking advantage of STAB, it's way too powerful. The 100 accuracy and 120 power are so good that the defense drops often don't even matter. It should have either it's accuracy or power lowered a bit, or reduce speed as either an alternative or additional side effect.

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Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:05 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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reduced speed might help things, but on the other hand, a fighting type using stab close combat can be predicted well. switch to psychic or something and your good.

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Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:12 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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omgocd wrote:
A move I would like to see weakened: Close Combat.

I'm not going to go into a really deep discussion about it, but with all of the high-attack fighting types (which is a great offensive type) taking advantage of STAB, it's way too powerful. The 100 accuracy and 120 power are so good that the defense drops often don't even matter. It should have either it's accuracy or power lowered a bit, or reduce speed as either an alternative or additional side effect.

Corresponding special attack versions of this do 140 damage, so I don't see why you're complaining.


Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:28 pm
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labarith wrote:
omgocd wrote:
A move I would like to see weakened: Close Combat.

I'm not going to go into a really deep discussion about it, but with all of the high-attack fighting types (which is a great offensive type) taking advantage of STAB, it's way too powerful. The 100 accuracy and 120 power are so good that the defense drops often don't even matter. It should have either it's accuracy or power lowered a bit, or reduce speed as either an alternative or additional side effect.

Corresponding special attack versions of this do 140 damage, so I don't see why you're complaining.

Please give examples.

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Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:11 pm
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Leafstorm, Dragon Meteor.

Now, yes, these are 5pp, and I don't know the pps for the other one, but still...


Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:48 am
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Dragon Tamer
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Give'n'Take:
Turn used: All stats lowered 1 stage, 1/4 of health lost
Next turn: After you next move, 1/4 of health regained, All stats raised 2 stages.

Nightfall:
Weather move. For the next 5 turns or until weather is changed, Dark and Ghost types gain 5% evasion. All non-ghost or dark types have a 10% to flinch each turn.

Acid Rain:
Weather move. For the next 5 turn or until weather is changed, Poison types recover 1/16 of their health. All non-poison or steel types that remain on the field two consecutive turns while Acid Rain is in effect are poisoned, after three turns they are badly poisoned.

_______

Just throwin' out ideas, and yeah i know i mentioned nightfall before.

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Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:01 am
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Dragon Tamer
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Give + take - I like the concept, but it needs a lot of work (and pps). Definately make it "give 1, get 2" (and change the name), and it needs a LOT of work to ballance (reducing attack on the turn where it doesn't attack seems pretty unfair, for example).

Nightfall - nice name, worthless/counterintuitive effect?

Acid Rain - I love this idea, but make it, say, 3 turns, poisons everyone (save steel/poison), then badly poisons, poison HP gain = gold, and have it activate swift swim... it is rain after all. Maybe make it such that all water attacks count as poison attacks instead?

Alternative:
Acid Rain - 1) triggers Swift Swim, 2) lasts 5 turns, 3) poison types gain 1/16th HP, 4) all water attacks have a 30% chance of poisoning target, 5) Increases Poison's Def? sp. Def?


Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:00 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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On acid rain, i too thought of toxic.

I also thought a new poison pokemon could have an ability that turns the Rain Dance rain into acid rain automatically upon entering the field.

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Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:26 pm
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Ajit wrote:
On acid rain, i too thought of toxic.

I also thought a new poison pokemon could have an ability that turns the Rain Dance rain into acid rain automatically upon entering the field.
"
I'd rather a straight-up weather effect pokemon ability, rather than a "nah, your weather is now poisoned" ability. I like this because it'll be easier to understand (and make sense of when you switch kyogre in after the fact).

Still, we'd need to settle on a "fair" acid rain, something that is somewhere between "casting toxic every turn" and "I do nothing for a turn" (I like the 1 turn poison, 2 turn badly poisoned options).

That said, "Acid Rain - 5pp?" will probably only be available on a limited number of poison pokemon, an option for some non-poison pokemon, and maybe there'd be ONE evolution line with the "Acid Dance" ability that makes it rain poison. This pokemon line probably can't have that many good attacks, and probably base stats of ~ 450 at the max (w/ low HP) because effectively his ability would be very close to casting a free toxic + extra bonuses.

That said, I'd LOVE the ability for some pokemon to evolve after a battle they leveled up in where there's the corresponding weather condition, and I can see a couple of cool plants, poison, and even fire pokemon who can evolve when they level up during a battle w/ acid rain (For example, a new plant that becomes plant/poison, and knows "Acid Rain - 5pp" at a reasonably early level and a fire pokemon (new or old) who becomes fire/poison (alternate Magmar evolution?). Rain/Sandstorm/Sunnyday guys should be pretty easy to come up with too (maybe that plant can evolve differently in each weather condition...), but would need to be new pokemon. :(


Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:46 pm
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What we need is a weather move for every type, eh? =D

Water - Rain Dance

Fire - Firestorm
Lasts 2 turns. Increase turn count each time a Fire move is used. Increase the power of Fire moves by 50% (maybe 30%?)

Grass - Sunny Day (it boosts fire, but it's much more grass-oriented)

Electric - Thunderstorm
Double Paralysis chance on Electric moves. All Electric moves 100% accurate.

Flying - Tornado
1/16 damage to all. Flyers and Levitators speed doubled.

Rock - Landslide
1/4 damage to non-Rock each turn. 2 turns. Rock Slide and Stone Edge 100% Accurate.

Ground - Sandstorm

Steel - Cyberspace
Secondary effects on Steel-types are removed at the end of each turn. (ie. Confusion/Attract/Leech Seed, not Burn/Paralysis/Poison/Freeze)

Normal


Fighting


Ghost


Dark - Nightfall
One stage accuracy drop for non-Dark and non-Ghost.

Psychic - Dream World
All Pokemon are considered Asleep for attacks and abilities.

Bug


Poison - Acid Rain
1/16 on non-Poison. 1/8 on Steel. Heal 1/16 on Poison. Toxic is 100% accurate.

Dragon


Ice - Hail



Just a few thoughts. =D


Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:39 am
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Dragon Tamer
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Right, sounds fun, but realistically I believe adding one or two more will be risking the game being weather crowded enough.

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Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:44 am
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Dragon Tamer
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Acid Rain sounds cool as a weather move. Firestorm... not as much. Sounds like a good name for a fire move though. :P

And yeah, weather is annoying, not cool. It might get less annoying in G5, but let's wait and see first.


Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:30 pm
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