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 Improving/Balancing Out Moves 
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Pokemon Ranger
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AceTrainer wrote:
And as for Petal Guard, I didn't quite understand what you said. Why let it break with any move? What then would be the sense of it?

I think he meant it would essentially be Substitute, but without the HP cost.
This would assist greatly in using stat-boosters (i.e. Swords Dance Meganium) the rely on Substitute to give them the extra turn(s)
because you wouldn't run the risk of running out of health before you can do substantial damage.

But I'm pretty sure I prefer the idea of resisting Super Effective moves for a few turns.
This wouldn't substantially hurt the opponent, because Grass doesn't have the most defensive Pokemon out there.
It would, indeed, give a majority of them the fighting chance for which they've been so desperately in need.

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Mon May 24, 2010 7:21 am
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haha you're right AceTrainer ;) sorry labarith but his stuff is more unique then what you simplified it down to.

I like you're idea for root strike, AceTrainer, maybe with its failure against flying it would be even more effective against ground (like 3X damage)

Spore Storm seems cool.

And yeah i think grass could use a move like fruit bomb.

For Petal Guard I believe labarith means that it would be just like the move substitute except that no matter what, any attack would break it, no matter how weak or whatever.

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Mon May 24, 2010 7:29 am
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labarith wrote:
Ajit wrote:
ok new move:

Basically it halves the chance of any opponent's attack from causing secondary effects (anything from burns to flinching to lowering a stat) for 5 turns.

So basically you want a move that is like 70-90% worthless and then only 50% successful? x 5? Do you realize how DO NOTHING that is?

And, really, when would you ever use this?
You: Ajit move go!
Them: Darn, my Waterfall only KOs your guy... no flinching. (falls on floor laughning, crushes gameboy, you win by default).

This would be outrageously effective against Serene Grace abusers. It destroys their entire point of existence.
It's essentially like Trick Choice-ing a sweeper.

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Mon May 24, 2010 7:33 am
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So its awesome then :P :P ??


.... I mean you yourself saying "abusers" makes me think you already think they are overused...

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Mon May 24, 2010 7:34 am
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Ajit wrote:
So its awesome then :P :P ??


.... I mean you yourself saying "abusers" makes me think you already think they are overused...

I wouldn't say they're overused,
but if you run into a Togekiss, Blissey, Jirachi or even Dunsparce when he's used correctly, you know you're in for an incredibly annoying KO.

It'd be nice to have a way to escape those.
I mean, they've given us Magnet Rise to nullify most Electric-types' advantages, why not give us this one?

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Mon May 24, 2010 7:55 am
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I love the idea of actually making Tri-attack a triple tiered attack. I mean, set it up like Fury Swipes or something.. but have the different elements in there.. don't tell me they can't do it. Simple stuff. Then, instead of making it a "Normal" type.. it can have the "???" type.


Mon May 24, 2010 11:51 am
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puck269 wrote:
I love the idea of actually making Tri-attack a triple tiered attack. I mean, set it up like Fury Swipes or something.. but have the different elements in there.. don't tell me they can't do it. Simple stuff. Then, instead of making it a "Normal" type.. it can have the "???" type.


OoO i didn't think about typing it as ??? ha that's cool :)

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Mon May 24, 2010 1:01 pm
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puck269 wrote:
I love the idea of actually making Tri-attack a triple tiered attack. I mean, set it up like Fury Swipes or something.. but have the different elements in there.. don't tell me they can't do it. Simple stuff. Then, instead of making it a "Normal" type.. it can have the "???" type.

I don't see how it has to be type ???, it just wouldn't get the STAB from normal. Seems perfectly reasonable.

Then again, it might be better to just make it a new move.


Mon May 24, 2010 2:49 pm
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I really like the idea of making it a "triple kick" type move,
with each attack being different typing, and each one having ~30% chance or whatever of inflicting the statuses.

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Mon May 24, 2010 8:44 pm
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Spoinkable wrote:
I really like the idea of making it a "triple kick" type move,
with each attack being different typing, and each one having ~30% chance or whatever of inflicting the statuses.

Well, 10% x 3. I could definately see a variety of these...
Triple Kick [Mixed] 40 x fighting, 40 x normal, 40 x flying? Additional effects: lower def, attack, evasion? 5pp
Elemental Blast [mixed] 40 x fire 40 x electricty 40 x water. Additional effects: Burn, paralysis, confusion 5pp
Spore Blast [mixed] 40 x poison, 40 x sleep, 40 x fire. Addiional effects: Poison, Sleep, burn (again!). 5pp
Dark Barrage [dark] 40 x dark, 40 x 1 random type, 40 x 1 random type. Additional effects: None. 5pp.

Edit: And yes, technician rocks the house w/ this type of move.


Mon May 24, 2010 10:33 pm
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labarith wrote:
Spoinkable wrote:
I really like the idea of making it a "triple kick" type move,
with each attack being different typing, and each one having ~30% chance or whatever of inflicting the statuses.

Well, 10% x 3. I could definately see a variety of these...
Triple Kick [Mixed] 40 x fighting, 40 x normal, 40 x flying? Additional effects: lower def, attack, evasion? 5pp
Elemental Blast [mixed] 40 x fire 40 x electricty 40 x water. Additional effects: Burn, paralysis, confusion 5pp
Spore Blast [mixed] 40 x poison, 40 x sleep, 40 x fire. Addiional effects: Poison, Sleep, burn (again!). 5pp
Dark Barrage [dark] 40 x dark, 40 x 1 random type, 40 x 1 random type. Additional effects: None. 5pp.

Edit: And yes, technician rocks the house w/ this type of move.


With technician in mind, that move would be WAY overpowered. The only way those power structures would work is if a technician pokemon was unable to learn it. Otherwise you are looking at a 60 x3.. which is 180.. that is running up there with only self destruct and explosion type attack powers. Almost any attacks that have a base power over 100 have some nasty side effects. Even without technician, you are talking a base power of 120 with little to no side effects.. but actually added effects possible.

Don't have a problem with the concept, but it isn't balanced properly.


Tue May 25, 2010 2:42 pm
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OK I got an idea for a new move, based on natures.

Name:
Psych Review or Inspection

10 pp

80 base power

Normal

Attack is based on natures. OK you're Pokemon has an Adamant nature. This means it has an increased Attack stat and reduced Sp. Attack stat.

Now there are three other natures that increase the Attack stat. All four of these natures (adamant, brave, lonely, and naughty) all favor spicy food. So if this attack hits an opponent with a nature that favors spicy foods, this move heals up to half of the enemy's health. If the attack hits a Pokemon whose nature dislikes spicy food, its base power is doubled. In this example, your Adamant Pokemon would deal double damage to Bold, Modest, Calm, and Timid natured Pokemon because those four natures dislike spicy food (and incidentally have a reduced Attack stat). If it hits any other pokemon, regular damage is applied.

Get it?

The idea behind the name and concept is that your pokemon basically determines if it likes or can relate with the foe, based on nature. If it has a similar nature (i.e. both pokemon like spicy food), then your Pokemon is satisfied and heals the enemy. If the two Pokemon have disagreements (i.e. your Pokemon likes spicy food, and the foe dislikes it) then it will deal double damage. Any other nature will not change the Base Power of the attack.

_____

If you don't see the potential strategies behind this, allow me to inform you!

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Tue May 25, 2010 10:19 pm
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Wait... now you're proposing I need to pay attention to my opponent's pokemon's dietary habbits? Their natures? NO! No sir! No! I can't even calculate idden power - arguably no one can w/o in depth knowledge of the game AND an IV calculator. And now you want a move whose flavor depends on something invisible during battle on my opponent's side? AND you want it to randomly heal them? No sir.
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on a more positive note:

Dealer's Choice - 5pp - This move selects a move at random of the pokemon other than Dealer's Choice. That move deals 50% more damage if it's a damage dealing move. Dealer's choice fails if the pokemon doesn't have 3 other moves.

Big Yawn - 5PP - normal - Puts both pokemon to sleep (Based off of the CCG move of the same name).

Happy Dreams - 10pp - normal - Can only be used when the pokemon is asleep, fails otherwise (like sleep talk/snore). The user regains 1/4th of it's HP and is cured of confusion if it's confused.

Naughty Dreams - 5pp - dark - If the target is asleep, then until it wakes up it will randomly target it's partner or itself with a move.

Crazed Strike - 15pp - dark - 70 damage, 80% accuracy. If the pokemon is confused, instead it never misses and it skips the random confusion check (but the pokemon is still confused), and it has a high critical hit ratio.


Tue May 25, 2010 11:40 pm
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Oooh Ajit, that's a pretty good idea.
It would have to have a pretty substantial effect in contests, too.

And labarith, all of those are phenomenal.
But I just have to lawl at

labarith wrote:
Naughty Dreams

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Wed May 26, 2010 7:38 am
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Thanks Spoinkable
_____

@ labarith lol as Spoinkable pointed out, you'd have to do something about the name of Naughty Dreams lol.

And also labarith, it wouldn't be random if you were skilled.

Here's a scenario involving this move:

OK, you are trying to get coverage over a special sweeper. That pokemon probably has a nature that increases Special Attack. So its either Modest, Mild, Quiet, or Rash... BUT more than likely its going to be Modest pokemon because Modest decreases attack, which a special sweeper has no use for.

Modest pokemon dislike spicy food. So give this move to an Adamant Pokemon (who is a physical sweeper, increased attack, decreased special attack) because Adamant Pokemon like spicy food and therefore deals double damage to this special sweeper.

And just like that, you deal 160 base power to a Pokemon with no ill-effects. (wow that sounds overpowering, maybe we should lower the base power by 10)
_____

And I've thought of a potential addition to the move. There are five natures that do nothing (hardy, docile, serious, bashful, quirky). They are as far as I know unused in competitive battling. So what if this move does not affect pokemon with any of these natures? That would be a potential motivator in deciding what nature to give your pokemon.

OK so what is the counter to this move? Putting natures to Pokemon that wouldn't be your first guess or giving it a nature that isn't affected by this move (hardy, docile, serious, bashful, quirky).

Thoughts?

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Wed May 26, 2010 1:06 pm
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While we're at it, why not make the Grass type the great mimic type?

Pepper Dust - 15 pp, 90% accuracy, burns the foe (may hit both foes but accuracy is halved)

Snow Pea - 15 pp, 85% accuracy, 30 damage, may freeze the foe (20% chance)

with poison powder, the grass type can cover ailments of fire, ice and poison in addition to paralysis and sleep!

---

Since plants are dependent on nature, how about this:

Wilt - 10 pp, reduces foliage to reduce damage taken from super effective moves. Takes 1/4 of max hp to reduce super effective moves into normal effectiveness. This would be a weaker version of petal guard, i think.

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Wed May 26, 2010 3:11 pm
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Ajit - make no mistake, it's nice to have moves that care about something secret the opponent has, or might have. For example, Imprison. But I think it's counter-intuitive to have a move that is SO concerned about these things as to make the game seriously unfun. Hidden Power - I get it. I won't use it, but I get it. It's also really not that good unless you luck into a hidden power that is of an elemental type that your guy needs but can't learn otherwise.

What you propose is a move that is so-ingrained to the metagame as to (a) be completely useless against a causal player, (b) be completely useless against a wild pokemon or in-game trainer, and (c) is so complicated that it defies you to not only know the secret info about YOUR pokemon, but about what you're facing as well.

I am interested in moves that care about such things - maybe "Poison the Well" is doubly effective if your opponent is holding a "mystic water, wave incense, or splash plate", but to care about the opponent's nature? I find the whole concept distateful.

That said, I suppose I could see some moves that are especially effective against a cowardly nature, or a timid nature, or something to this effect - but these should be few and far between, and made up for with moves that benifit from that nature.


Wed May 26, 2010 4:02 pm
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Ilove Ajit's idea. A bit over powered, but that can be tweeked. The idea itself is wonderful and fits in well with a lot of the moves already in the pokemon universe. Lets face it, some moves make no sense to use in certain contexts. The fact that it could potentially have a negative effect would not only help balance out the move, but it would also be another way that the casual player could outgame a hardcore overthinker. It is about balancing out gameplay, which you know GameFreak is all about.

It also makes natures a more useful stat and adds strategy that was already pointed out.

Excellent idea.


Wed May 26, 2010 7:51 pm
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puck269 wrote:
Ilove Ajit's idea. A bit over powered, but that can be tweeked. The idea itself is wonderful and fits in well with a lot of the moves already in the pokemon universe. Lets face it, some moves make no sense to use in certain contexts. The fact that it could potentially have a negative effect would not only help balance out the move, but it would also be another way that the casual player could outgame a hardcore overthinker. It is about balancing out gameplay, which you know GameFreak is all about.

It also makes natures a more useful stat and adds strategy that was already pointed out.

Excellent idea.


success...!

This is what I was trying to capture, a new way to approach balancing out as well as use of natures.

thanks for the words, I appreciate your appreciation.

@ labarith;

I understand, perhaps its too complicated, but I like it nonetheless. But yes as you pointed out, perhaps have some moves that involve natures, but are simpler.

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Wed May 26, 2010 8:28 pm
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You know what I'd really like to see: The following move:

Call for Help - normal - 1pp? - In a single battle, if you have 1 pokemon out, it calls a random pokemon out from your team. (And thus you have 2 pokemon out).

I sort of want this to be a 5pp move, but 1pp, as it stands, is far more ballanced... and probably a bit overpowered.

Here's a variation:

Call for Help Version 2 - normal - 5pp - If your pokemon has less than half of it's HP remaining and you have only 1 pokemon out, it calls out a random pokemon from your team (thus you have 2 pokemon).

I sort of like version 2 better because you wouldn't be able to double-team your opponent so easily. I like the idea that you get a pokemon at random because it makes it less powerful overall. I mean, let's say your Blissey is at half it's HP, and you're up against a Scizor. You use call for help v2, and get your dratonite, which is summarily KOed by Scizor's metal claw? It's still a good move, I think, and still potentially overpowered.

Thoughts?
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Edit: And another idea: Moves that change natures:

Change Disposition - dark - 10pp - changes target's nature to a random nature. Has a 50% chance of confusing the target.

Bold Defense - normal - 10pp - The user's nature changes to Bold, and increases the defense stat by two levels.

Docile Ray - 20pp - psychic - special - 80% accuracy - deals 50 damage to the target. The target's nature becomes docile (until it's switched out/etc.).

Humility - 10pp - psychic - turns the user's nature to modest. Has a 50% chance of raising the sp. attack and sp. def. stat by 1 level.

Make Haste - 10pp - normal - physical - Increased priority move. Does 30 damage to the target, then changes the user's nature to hasty. If the user's nature is already hasty, it instead does 70 damage to the target. Has a high critical hit ratio if the user is hasty.


Thu May 27, 2010 9:22 am
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Have to say, Ajit, the theory behind the idea sounds great. However, if I'm battling a Trainer, 100 times out of 100 I don't want to heal his/her Pokemon simply because mine likes theirs. If that was the case, then they should do the same with Attraction...

I think Natures should be more important, but there's also the guessing factor. Why would it matter what Nature my opponent's Pokemon has? Especially if it is going to end up HEALING them? That principle seems rather unusual to me. Unlike the anime, the point of Pokemon battles is for battling, in and of itself. While this move (moves?) would be interesting experimentally, a 10-year-old is not going to understand why they're healing the enemy's Pokemon when instead they should be hurting it... Thus it would be a little too confusing for the main target audience (and all of the casual players to whom nature is just another random aspect).

@ labarith, why in the world should it be so easy to change a Pokemon's Nature? Think of it in a human mind. It's not nearly a simple move to change someone's entire nature, even if it's only temporary.

As for balancing things out, I find it a little too "God-modding" for Pokemon to incorporate labarith's idea (sorry...). And the only good I could see from Ajit's idea is to make Natures slightly more important, and even then, it would only frustrate players who don't bother with that stuff...

Great ideas, both of you, but I just don't see it happening.

AEPMT :mrgreen: ;) 8-)

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Thu May 27, 2010 6:16 pm
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AEP: Master Trainer wrote:

I think Natures should be more important, but there's also the guessing factor. Why would it matter what Nature my opponent's Pokemon has? Especially if it is going to end up HEALING them? That principle seems rather unusual to me. Unlike the anime, the point of Pokemon battles is for battling, in and of itself. While this move (moves?) would be interesting experimentally, a 10-year-old is not going to understand why they're healing the enemy's Pokemon when instead they should be hurting it... Thus it would be a little too confusing for the main target audience (and all of the casual players to whom nature is just another random aspect).


So you think the ability of Water Absorb, or the electricity equivalent is too complicated for children to figure out? The precedent is already there. The games have been getting increasingly more complicated battle system wise each generation. Gen V will increase it even more.

II - introduced held items, III - introduced double battles and natures, IV - physical/special attack types.

It would be foolish to think that there wasn't going to be some major battle system change that was going to be added in Gen V. Pokemon is leaning more heavily toward trying to individualize each pokemon each generation. First Natures, then Characteristics (granted they don't do anything). With Competative battling starting to lean so heavily on having the right natures, GameFreak is going to try to find a way to somehow balance that out.


Fri May 28, 2010 8:46 am
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Yay for more competitive and more uniqueness!

I want a unique Pikachu, one that no one else has!

Time for a third personality trait to appear in the games!!!!!!

______


But yes I definitely agree with puck269, some of the moves in Pokemon are quite complicated. The in-game description for my move might be simplified down to something like, "A move that varies in power based on other Pokemon's traits".

Some moves that are complicated;

Natural Gift
Present (which potentially heals the enemy!!)
Secret Power
the Stockpile-SpitUp-Swallow combos

those are just a quick few I thought of

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Fri May 28, 2010 9:18 am
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puck269 wrote:
So you think the ability of Water Absorb, or the electricity equivalent is too complicated for children to figure out? The precedent is already there.

Did you just compare guessing the pokemon ability, which is at MAX a 1 out of 2 possibility, to guessing which natures your opponent's pokemon have?

Isn't that like taking a headlong swandive down a slippery slope through the center of the earth to China?

"Hey, look, last time you gave me a warning for driving at 42 in a 40 zone. Yeah, I know, I was driving 70 miles an hour, and drunk this time, but PRECEDENT is already there!"

For crying out loud, it's one thing to defend your position. It's quite another to pretend the rules of commonsense don't apply. And your argument, from "precedent", is just this sort of thing.


Fri May 28, 2010 8:04 pm
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labarith wrote:
puck269 wrote:
So you think the ability of Water Absorb, or the electricity equivalent is too complicated for children to figure out? The precedent is already there.

Did you just compare guessing the pokemon ability, which is at MAX a 1 out of 2 possibility, to guessing which natures your opponent's pokemon have?


Despite all your examples of.. well.. whatever you were talking about.. I was referring to the precedent for having a move that healed the other pokemon, which AEP had mentioned seemed "unusual" like it didn't happen. And really, in competitive battling most of the time you can guess the opposing pokemon has one of two natures.. which is about as equal chances of guessing if some pokemon have the "absorb" ability.


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