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 Toxic Spikes versus Toxic? 
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Which do you think is the better poison move, Toxic Spikes or Toxic?

Toxic Spikes have the advantage that they affect every of your foe's pokemon when they switch in. And if you lie down two rows of spikes, they have the same effect as Toxic and badly poison your foe's pokemon.

The disadvantage of Toxic Spikes is that they only work on pokemon that switch in, not the one you're currently batteling. And I believe they don't affect flying/levitating pokemon, and are completely negated when your foe uses a steel or poison pokemon.

So what do you think: Toxic Spikes or Toxic and why?

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Mon May 05, 2008 10:25 am
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i think toxic is better, cus it poisons the current pokemon your batling and you only have to use it once to poison it badly.

you could set two rows of poisons spikes down and then use growl to force your opponet to switch the pokemon,
but for all that you would need 3 turns...

i dont even see a lot of sense in it...if your opponet will switch the pokemon you can use still use toxic on it, so if he switches his pokemon and you used toxic, you wont loose any turn since the switch will pe performet before toxic comes in action :mrgreen:


Mon May 05, 2008 10:33 am
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I say toxic spikes coz it can affect more pokemon

it's best used in double battles in my opinion coz hav one pokemon that knows toxic spikes & one that hurts both the other trainers pokemon

that way u may be able to faint the first 2 pokemon then poison the next 2

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Mon May 05, 2008 10:36 am
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Toxic Spikes is better, that's for sure, you don't need to worry about missing, and it affects all non-steel and/or poison types. But take note, you'll be ruined if they have a Spinner. But the again, Toxic gets owned more if the opponent has Heal Bell, Aromatherapy or a Lum berry.


Tue May 06, 2008 2:40 am
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Toxic Spikes is a crappy version of Toxic. To the person who said Toxic Spikes affects more Pokemon: um.... what? They can't hit two (2) types of Pokemon at all: Steels and Flyers. They also can't hurt Pokemon with Levitate, which is like one of the more whored out abilities in the game. And enemy Poison Pokemon absorb Toxic Spikes entirely, removing them from the field just by switching into the battle. On the other hand, Toxic can't hit Poisons and Steels. That's it.

Otherwise, Toxic will inflict toxic poisoning in one (1) turn while you need to lay down two (2) layers of Toxic Spikes to get the same effect... and THEN you need to bait your opponent into switching afterward. And beyond that, at least with Toxic you have the choice of what Pokemon you want to poison. Laying down Toxic Spikes only for a Blissey to come and Aromatherapy off the toxic (for just one example of when setting up Toxic Spikes is more of a hinderance than anything else) accomplishes NOTHING but two wasted turns for the Spiker.


Tue May 06, 2008 5:14 am
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I agree with Frost. Toxic spokes is a waste of time, however it's more accurate than toxic, and if toxic misses the 1st turn, and poison spikes gets both, then each takes 2 turns.
That's my view on it anyway. :)
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Tue May 06, 2008 5:52 am
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Frost wrote:
Toxic will inflict toxic poisoning in one (1) turn while you need to lay down two (2) layers of Toxic Spikes to get the same effect... and THEN you need to bait your opponent into switching afterward. And beyond that, at least with Toxic you have the choice of what Pokemon you want to poison. Laying down Toxic Spikes only for a Blissey to come and Aromatherapy off the toxic (for just one example of when setting up Toxic Spikes is more of a hinderance than anything else) accomplishes NOTHING but two wasted turns for the Spiker.


Not nessesarily two wasted turns, my friend, perhaps Blissey got rid of the poisoning, but if your opponent's team lacks a spinner or a non-levitating poison type, the Toxic Spikes are not going anywhere, so he or she will have to use Aromatherapy frecuently, and said moved doesn't last for ever.

- - -

In my opinion, laying down two layers of Toxic Spikes prove a better outcome of the battle on your favour... sure, many pokémon in the competitive world of today are either Levitatours or are part Steel or Poison to block it out, and true, you can just send out Forretress to spin them away clean, but let's remember that the most common Poison-type in the game (Gengar) has Levitate, so does not absorb the spikes AND that the most common leviatatour there is to see (Bronzong) isn't affected by Toxic either... neither of them are affected by Toxic, actually.

So, Toxic Spikes is a move that can make your opponent think it twice to even considering switching into a counter if he or she happens to lack either a Cleric (like Blissey @ Aromatherapy) or a spinner or both (in which case he or she is very much of a n00b).

I've stalled Garchomp to death thanks to Toxic Spikes (during a Sandstorm) where Toxic would have missed more then once for sure. So it depends on wether you just want to badly poison the target right away (with an erratic chance of missing) or if you rather gaining a bit more control, although temporary, of the board.

If you ask me, Toxic Spikes proves superior to Toxic in terms of my needs, because I like to have the whole board on my favour without having to use weather-changing moves (T-tar, anyone?) or Trick Room (I just get unlucky with it).

That's the way I see it, anyways... so yeah...

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Tue May 06, 2008 10:06 am
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Here's my take on it. I'll list the pros and cons of both (and I won't list the Poison immunity of Poisons or Steels, since neither one can touch them)

Toxic Spikes

Pros:
Within 2 turns, a continual Toxic effect is set whenever the opponent swaps out.
It can inflict Toxic on the foe's entire party while you just sit there dishing out damage.

Cons:
What if your opponent never switches out? What if your entire team is owned just by one Pokemon?
Spinners with Levitate can ruin this. I have a Claydol for this exact purpose; its defenses rival even Bronzong's, and can send Toxic Spikes AND Stealth Rock flying.
Aromatherapy or Heal Bell can temporarily alleviate the effect.

Toxic

Pros:
Badly poisons the foe instantly, so you don't have to waste more turns setting the trap up.
Can hit Levitaters, which Toxic Spikes cannot. And Levitate is one of the most overused abilities in the game, and is used frequently (as well as several Flying types) for their immunity to Earthquake. Toxic bypasses this.

Cons:
Aromatherapy erases it.
85% accuracy, but even then it's not that far below 100.

My opinion: Toxic has less exploitable weaknesses than Toxic Spikes. Although they are both destroyed by Steels, Poisons, and Aromatherapy, a Spinner is a very exploitable weakness, and odds are the enemy team will have a Spinner, so all that hard work is practically nulled, and you have to spend another two turns setting it up, only to have it whisked away again. And like I said before, a Spinner with Levitate can't be stopped by it (if Bronzong could learn Rapid Spin he'd be even more of a demon than he is now).

Toxic all the way; it allows you to get rolling a lot faster than Toxic Spikes would. And even so, if Aromatherapy was activated, Toxic would at least have a chance to inflict damage. Against Toxic Spikes, a Spinner could eradicate it before Poison is even introduced.

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Tue May 06, 2008 8:14 pm
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Frost wrote:
Toxic Spikes is a crappy version of Toxic. To the person who said Toxic Spikes affects more Pokemon: um.... what? They can't hit two (2) types of Pokemon at all: Steels and Flyers. They also can't hurt Pokemon with Levitate, which is like one of the more whored out abilities in the game. And enemy Poison Pokemon absorb Toxic Spikes entirely, removing them from the field just by switching into the battle. On the other hand, Toxic can't hit Poisons and Steels. That's it.

Otherwise, Toxic will inflict toxic poisoning in one (1) turn while you need to lay down two (2) layers of Toxic Spikes to get the same effect... and THEN you need to bait your opponent into switching afterward. And beyond that, at least with Toxic you have the choice of what Pokemon you want to poison. Laying down Toxic Spikes only for a Blissey to come and Aromatherapy off the toxic (for just one example of when setting up Toxic Spikes is more of a hinderance than anything else) accomplishes NOTHING but two wasted turns for the Spiker.


Hello? Waste of turns? Really, I'm Speechless. tell me, how many times do you have to use Toxic to Poison all 6 of your Opponent's Pokemon huh? 6 turns, and I doubt the opponent will be so stupid to slowly switch out his/her Pokemon obediently and let you poison them one by one. I can do the same thing within 2 turns and negate the opponent's choice at the same time.

Toxic Spikes is better an investment. To proof this we'll have to look at why some people like me don't teach Toxic to any Pokemon. 1: It requires a good turn that I could have used for something much much better. 2: If it misses or the opponent has a Lum berry you would have used up 2 turns just to BADLY POISON 1 or your opponent's Pokemon. Hmmm, you know, I could've knocked that pokemon in 2 hits you know. 3: It's a total waste of time if the opponent has a Aromatherapist.

Toxic Spikes takes 2 turns to set up completely but it lasts forever unless the opponent has a Poison/Spinner Pokemon. The Pokemon who sets this up may have to be sacrificed but you know what all my other 5 Pokemon get to use "Toxic" for free. They don't have to bother wasting a turn to poison a Pokemon. If 5 of the opponent can be poisoned by Toxic Spikes, I would have used Toxic 5 times just by using 2 turns. And it also means each of my Pokemon gets a FREE toxic that doesn't take up a move place.

Moreover Toxic Spikes doesn't become as useless as Toxic if the opponent has an Aromatherapist. It only becomes useless if the opponent has a Spinner. And I can tell you there aren't really that many people who like to use Spinners cos Spinners aren't very strong Pokemon. If you want to say Toxic is better cos Toxic Spikes gets removed by Spinners. I can also say Toxic Spikes is better because Aromatheraphy/Heal Bell/Lum berry/Taunt etc makes Toxic useless.

Too many things make Toxic useless and it forces you to be at a disadvantage because you may have wasted a turn, and only 1 thing makes Toxic Spikes completely useless. On top of that, Toxic Spikes is more capable of affecting more Pokemon and it grants all your Pokemon a double free Toxic that doesn't take up a move slot and doesn't require a turn at all. (For the rest of your Pokemon) All it takes is 2 turns, and you gain a huge advantage.

So tell me now, do you still find giving 5 of your Pokemon a "double" free Toxic worst than just a Pokemon who can use Toxic at the expense of possibly turns and a move slot? 8-)


Wed May 07, 2008 3:59 am
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Sapphirath wrote:
Hello? Waste of turns? Really, I'm Speechless. tell me, how many times do you have to use Toxic to Poison all 6 of your Opponent's Pokemon huh? 6 turns, and I doubt the opponent will be so stupid to slowly switch out his/her Pokemon obediently and let you poison them one by one. I can do the same thing within 2 turns and negate the opponent's choice at the same time.


They would also not be stupid enough to swap out his/her Pokemon to let Toxic Spikes even take effect. Realistically, even if your opponent lacked a Spinner, s/he could just have one Pokemon the whole time. Sitting there, and beating your team to a pulp.

Besides, it's possible that the Spiker could be walloped in one hit, and the Toxic Spikes would only do normal Poison, making Poison kills take 3 times longer.

Also, Toxic can be learned by ANYBODY. As opposed to Toxic Spikes, however, very few can learn it. And of that list, the only one even remotely capable of pulling it off is Forretress, and he can learn all 3 Spike-moves (Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock).

Whereas Toxic Spikes has a very lacking selection of who can effectively use it, you could tack Toxic onto anybody. And I do mean, anybody.

It's interesting to note that nobody thought yet of who could actually learn Toxic Spikes. Forretress is the only one able to survive a non-Flamethrower *headshot*. Your "proof" isn't very solid, Sapphirath...

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Thu May 08, 2008 4:34 pm
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Look, this discussion is on which is the better of the two moves, which means which will pull it off better during a battle, so I see no reason why which Pokemon can learn what move has anything to do with the perfomance of either moves.

So back to the main track, we're talking about which move works better. You still can't prove me wrong that a double free (Double free as in 5 of my Pokemon don't need to know it or use it to gain its effects.) Toxic for 5 of your Pokemon (Toxic Spikes) IS better than a Toxic that requires a move slot as well as a turn to activate and only affects one Pokemon per use. Don't go talking about Toxic Spikes being weaker because it is easily negated by Spinners, cos Toxic itself has MORE counters which are equally devastating. Talking about switches, the opponent doesn't have a choice because he has to send out another Pokemon after his previous one was defeated. Which means, unless he defeats you before sending out all of his Pokemon, all of the Pokemon he sends out will be badly poisoned if they're not immune to Toxic Spikes' effects.

Oh, and if my earlier posts seem to imply that I like Toxic/Toxic Spikes I can safely tell you I hate both of them cos they are not very much worth it in most circumstances. :)


Fri May 09, 2008 1:27 am
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Sapphirath wrote:
It [Toxic Spikes] only becomes useless if the opponent has a Spinner.


Or if he brings out a steel or poison, 'cause they break/absorb the spikes. At least, that's how I read the move description?

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Fri May 09, 2008 2:37 am
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well also, with toxic you get to CHOOSE who you poison. With toxic spikes the opponent can use it against you, seeing the toxic spikes they can say "yay" and bust out their heracross or other guts user, and smite you. However, with toxic, you can choose if you want to poison your opponent.

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Fri May 09, 2008 6:21 am
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Sapphirath wrote:
Look, this discussion is on which is the better of the two moves, which means which will pull it off better during a battle, so I see no reason why which Pokemon can learn what move has anything to do with the perfomance of either moves.

So back to the main track, we're talking about which move works better. You still can't prove me wrong that a double free (Double free as in 5 of my Pokemon don't need to know it or use it to gain its effects.) Toxic for 5 of your Pokemon (Toxic Spikes) IS better than a Toxic that requires a move slot as well as a turn to activate and only affects one Pokemon per use. Don't go talking about Toxic Spikes being weaker because it is easily negated by Spinners, cos Toxic itself has MORE counters which are equally devastating. Talking about switches, the opponent doesn't have a choice because he has to send out another Pokemon after his previous one was defeated. Which means, unless he defeats you before sending out all of his Pokemon, all of the Pokemon he sends out will be badly poisoned if they're not immune to Toxic Spikes' effects.

Oh, and if my earlier posts seem to imply that I like Toxic/Toxic Spikes I can safely tell you I hate both of them cos they are not very much worth it in most circumstances. :)

That is true enough. Honestly I'd say neither is truly better than the other, and I rarely use Toxic against my enemies (however I do leave it on Blissey, as a backup plan).

The bit that Toxic Spikes can only be used effectively by Forretress (Cloyster has abysmal SpDef) still can't be overlooked, though, as well as Toxic's incredible versatility, even more so than Protect.

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Fri May 09, 2008 2:45 pm
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Noob question btw: what move/ability makes a pokemon a "spinner"?

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Fri May 09, 2008 3:11 pm
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rapid Spin makes a pokemon a spinner...

ok.. I personally Like Toxic Spikes for one Sole reason... u can bait your oponent to bring out the pokemon u want to... smash into tiny bits...

lets say for instance:

I send out my Cloyster with toxic spikes and use it on 2 turns, while the Oponent uses some supportmove, letssay swords dance... then the following turns my cloyster faints so I send ou my Toxicroak... after beating the other pokemon, my oponent will probally want to send out something that can make TS useless correct? well there u go... a blissey falls to a good SERVED brick break... and so on...

i prefer TS over Toxic myself... although it has its disavantages, like all moves... =D

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Fri May 09, 2008 5:22 pm
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To everybody who bitched at me by saying Toxic Spikes doesn't leave the field: that's the problem. Toxic Spikes doesn't leave the field. That means that any opponent Pokemon who is susceptible to being poisoned will be poisoned when they switch in. How much good does that accomplish? Poison, even toxic poisoning, is still the least useful of the status conditions in the game. Using Toxic with a specific strategy, such as using toxic on a bulky Pokemon to sap its HP, is fine with the move Toxic because you have the choice of whether or not to inflict it. With Toxic Spikes it's automatic poisoning, nullifying your opportunities to inflict burn, sleep, paralysis or freezehax. All of which are generally more useful than toxic/poison.

Otherwise, one layer of Toxic Spikes is completely worthless. Regular poison absolutely sucks. Even two layers of Toxic Spikes is a double-edged sword for the reason I gave above. And no matter how many layers of spikes you have down, any competent competitive battler WILL have an Aromatherapist/Heal Beller and/or a Rapid Spinner. Rapid Spinners are more common than ever in the DP metagame because of Stealth Rock. Not because of Toxic Spikes.


Fri May 09, 2008 5:43 pm
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Well, the people who have Rapid Spinners, Aromatherapists etc. tend to lose out to people who don't have them cos they replace these Pokemon with stronger ones. (Trust me I've seen many without them and still are capable of owning) I don't think any of those who can learn Rapid Spin are very powerful Pokemon and Aromatherapy/Heal Bell on a Blissey/Dragonite/Articuno takes up one of its precious move slots, which makes them weaker than normal ones who don't have these moves because, again these are replaced with moves which are more suiting for them.

But really, it depends on different situations for which to be better than which. If you want to inflict other Conditions other than Poison then Toxic Spikes won't be a suitable choice but if your team depends on damage over duration/force switching tactics etc then Toxic Spikes will be a more suitable choice.

The views on this discussion really depends on what you're comparing here. Toxic Spikes is a much better choice if your Goal is to poison as many Pokemon as possible so as to gain the upper hand from the slow damage each of your opponents' Pokemon recieves. In this case, Toxic Spikes provides Free Toxics for each of your Pokemon and they don't have to use up a turn to badly poison the foe. Toxic won't be good in poisoning many Pokemon because 1: It requires a turn to activate. 2: It takes up a move slot. Toxic Spikes outshines Toxic in this way many times over.

However, if Toxic Spikes affects your strategy in battles in negative ways then of course Toxic will be better. You see, which is better than which really depends on what kind of strategy you're using...this is entirely situational.

But, you cannot deny the fact that Toxic Spikes is more capable of badly poisoning Pokemon because in can poison most with the least effort. I thought you guys were discussing about this so I chose Toxic Spikes. But it turns out that you guys were comparing more than that, thus my new views on things. :)


Fri May 09, 2008 11:12 pm
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Quote:
I don't think any of those who can learn Rapid Spin are very powerful Pokemon

O rly?

Quote:
Claydol
Bold | 252 HP ; 108 Def ; 96 SAtk ; 52 SDef
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin

I use this guy on occasion. But not in the Battle Tower because there are too many h4x.

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Sun May 11, 2008 5:32 pm
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DNA wrote:
Quote:
I don't think any of those who can learn Rapid Spin are very powerful Pokemon

O rly?

Quote:
Claydol
Bold | 252 HP ; 108 Def ; 96 SAtk ; 52 SDef
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin

I use this guy on occasion. But not in the Battle Tower because there are too many h4x.


NOT as powerful as a Bronzong, Blissey, Skarmory in terms of it's ability to Wall/take out Pokemon. Not as powerful as most OU Pokemon anyway. But it will make a big difference if you teach Explosion instead. :)


Mon May 12, 2008 5:29 am
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toxic wins for me as it instantly causes badly poisoned
although if you use a pesuado haze technicue with roar/whirlwind then toxic spikes will own

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Mon May 12, 2008 9:43 am
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my opinion is that toxic spikes is better.

if you have ever used toxic, you know why it is so good. you just sit there raising your defenses while the opponent suffers right? so being able to inflict toxic poison on as many opponents is a good thing. especially since it is a good way to get rid of strategies like focus sash, endure/reversal, etc (stealth rock is better for that, because it DEFINITELY hits everyone for at least some damage, even with resistences).

the thing with toxic (the move) is that probably at most one (or maybe two) of your pokes will know it. and say there is a garchomp out there, in sandstorm, and the only way you think you can take it down is with toxic. well, chances are your toxic user isnt out there. so you have to switch it in. by this time, garchomp probably already has a substitute, and you still have to deal with the sand veil hax. with toxic spikes, at least you know he will be poisoned to start with.

thats just my opinion. its kinda pointless to argue about this kind of thing though. because its easy to see what advantages both have (immediacy of toxic, the lasting effects of toxic spikes). there are problems with both however. i just feel like the spikes variant comes out on top. you could start with toxic spikes, and then switch to a dusknoir who has great defenses and blocks rapid spin. then again, its just asking for a heracross to come in and love being poisoned. i think im just talking about poisoning in general now, so ill stop.....

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Mon May 12, 2008 4:47 pm
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toxic is better because eventhough toxic spikes affect pokemon when they switch out or faint,toxic starts to affect the pokemon and get worse.

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Sat May 17, 2008 10:20 am
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Aquatrainer93 wrote:
toxic is better because eventhough toxic spikes affect pokemon when they switch out or faint,toxic starts to affect the pokemon and get worse.

...That didn't make any sense...Toxic Spikes can have the same effect as Toxic Poisoning if two layers of spikes are set.

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Sat May 17, 2008 1:08 pm
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I'd say that they are about even. Both can be applied differently and would have a larger advantage then other would. Or should I say that Toxic in only better in the situation that Toxic Spikes is at a disadvantage.



Stealth Rock is popular, thus so are spinners. This messes up Toxic Spikes up a lot. Weakness by association.



Why do you think there is no Ghost type with Roar or Whirlwind?

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Sat May 17, 2008 2:26 pm
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