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Metagame Analysis

UU

First of all, UU stands for, obviously, Underused. The UU metagame is simply a metagame for pokemon who aren

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Sat Jun 03, 2006 7:32 am
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BoarderLine (BL)

It may also be worth noting that some UU servers and tourneys allow one or more BL pokemon. BL stands for BoarderLine. Essentialy, these are pokemon that are a little too good to be considered UU, but aren't quite good enough to see lots of OU (OverUsed, also known as Standard) play. The BL list is fairly short; here is Smogon's list.

* Arcanine
* Armaldo
* Articuno
* Chansey
* Cloyster
* Crobat
* Dodrio
* Entei
* Espeon
* Hariyama
* Houndoom
* Jumpluff
* Jynx
* Kadabra
* Kingdra
* Lapras
* Machamp
* Miltank
* Porygon2
* Registeel
* Scizor
* Slowbro
* Smeargle
* Swellow
* Typhlosion
* Ursaring
* Zangoose

Personaly, I think that some of these shouldn't be allowed any where close to UU play, but I didn't make the list.

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Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:15 pm
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With the removal of the BL pokemon, UU becomes both harder to team build AND more fun to play because you don't have to think "Ok, this counters Mence, Ttar, Zapdos, and Raikou....but its weak to Celebi, Jirachi, and Heracross" ect.

UU is definately fun to play...and give a lot more flexibilty in terms of team building.

Those used to OU play can sometimes find difficulty in building UU teams.

Also, the pace is usually faster and more offense baesd rather than defensive stalling.

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Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:51 pm
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This is just UU play. If borderlines were part of it, I would have mentioned them.

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Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:02 pm
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Siphai wrote:
This is just UU play. If borderlines were part of it, I would have mentioned them.


Some people equiviate UU with BL. That is the relavence.

Sadly, UU and BL are completely seperate and need to be forever treated as such. Once you mix the two, you get a format that is Faster OU play with different standard pokemon. I.E. CB Swellow, Trick Grumpig, ect.

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Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:15 pm
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I'd like to add a few things.

Comment on the Dunsparce, never use TW, use Body Slam. This makes it one of the most annoying things to face and has swept my team many times.

You Must, Must, Must, Must, Must, MUST have something to take care of Hypno and Grumpig (and Slowbro is UUBL). If you don't, they can wall anything (except maybe crunch for the first two and shadow ball for Slowbro) of their defensive alignment. For the first two, a Pinsir or Banette scares them off, and if you can predict, KO them.

You ALSO must have a Lanturn/Lapras/(to a lesser extent)Blastoise counter. They live FOREVER and they are SUPER ANNOYING. Lanturn dies to EQ, and they others die to two-three thunderbolts.

Like you said, Quick Attack is mandatory.

Like you said, The CB birds rage through this metagame, and that requires people to have a normal resistence. If UUBL, Steelix is on every team, so no worries there. In regular UU, Solrock, Golem, and Aggron are nice normal resistences.

Also, Gilgar isn't that big of a threat. In my experience, at least, Gligar causes no real problem if you don't let them get +6 attack and +1 speed. Other than that, They aren't that scary.

The last thing is you have some weird placement of some pokemon, that is certainly not their standard. Victrebel works better as a mixed sweeper, and Kabutops can't rain-dance to save it's life (unless the set is like Swords Dance, Rain Dance, Earthquake, and Rock Slide or something). Stantler is not a CB'r to be worried about, and Reflect Solrck works better than CB rock, in my opinion.

Yeah, pretty good guide. UU is easily my favorite metagame, and it's super fun to play. If there is a Psypoke UU, sign me up immeadiately.

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Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:32 am
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Kirke wrote:
I'd like to add a few things.

Comment on the Dunsparce, never use TW, use Body Slam. This makes it one of the most annoying things to face and has swept my team many times.


I hate to say this, but that means there is something seriosly wrong with your team. Aggron is faster than Dunsparce and can put up a sub easily as to not be flinched/paraed. All CBers are faster and can ohko. Pinsir without cb can ohko. Gligar can probably ohko. Electrode can put up a sub and 2hko. 60% Para is nice, but it's relying on the para too much. It's like Hypnosis Gengar in the days of RBY; if it doesn't hit with sleep (para in this case), then it's a gonner. And at least Gengar had the speed to try again, where as Dunsparce doesn't.

Hitmonlee is also the best counter for this, as is anything with limber (RE: Ditto could beat this since he can't be paralized). Hitmonlee is also a common cber.

Quote:
You Must, Must, Must, Must, Must, MUST have something to take care of Hypno and Grumpig (and Slowbro is UUBL). If you don't, they can wall anything (except maybe crunch for the first two and shadow ball for Slowbro) of their defensive alignment. For the first two, a Pinsir or Banette scares them off, and if you can predict, KO them.


Substitute beats Hypno, Dark types beat both, (especially Sharpedo). Substitute also beats non-calm minding Grumpigs. Switching in a Choice Bander beats the Trickbanding varients (Where they trick choice band onto a pokemon). They aren't giants, they just withstand special hits well. Slowbro is a monster a lot of the time though, thankfully Pinsir IS a sure fire counter. (He'll obviously switch in once Slowbro gets his first Calm mind, Swords Dance, and then take Slowbro out. If Slowbro has less than 100%, then Pinsir ohko's and CB Pinsir always ohkos.)

Quote:
You ALSO must have a Lanturn/Lapras/(to a lesser extent)Blastoise counter. They live FOREVER and they are SUPER ANNOYING. Lanturn dies to EQ, and they others die to two-three thunderbolts.


Lapras is BL, and is the only one of the three that really WILL live forever. Blastoise gets super countered by Grumpig / Electric types (common in UU), and Lanturn gets super countered by any Ground type that predicts a TBolt / Twave. Also includes Hitmonlee.



Quote:
Like you said, The CB birds rage through this metagame, and that requires people to have a normal resistence. If UUBL, Steelix is on every team, so no worries there. In regular UU, Solrock, Golem, and Aggron are nice normal resistences.


Steelix is actually OU. Have you seen the frickin' defense stat on that thing? Thank god. Anyway, that's pretty much the truth, though Aggron is slightly less of a counter because of HP Ground. If they know you have Aggron on your team, then believe me, they will randomly predict with HP Ground.

Quote:
Also, Gilgar isn't that big of a threat. In my experience, at least, Gligar causes no real problem if you don't let them get +6 attack and +1 speed. Other than that, They aren't that scary.


Obviously if you protect against them, then they aren't much of a threat. However, it is quite easy for Gligar to set up with an SD on most any pokemon, then decimate your counter, and then decimate your team. He doesn't even need the berry boost. If you have more than 2 types weak to ground, then you are gligar bait.

Quote:
The last thing is you have some weird placement of some pokemon, that is certainly not their standard. Victrebel works better as a mixed sweeper, and Kabutops can't rain-dance to save it's life (unless the set is like Swords Dance, Rain Dance, Earthquake, and Rock Slide or something). Stantler is not a CB'r to be worried about, and Reflect Solrck works better than CB rock, in my opinion.


Please don't try to correct if you don't know what you are correcting. I know some of them work better in other areas, however they are still possible threats in the context I listed them in. Kabutops also CAN be an awesome Rain Dancer, because, unlike Omastar, he can ultilize Physical moves as to destroy those special tanks. Also, that moveset with SD, RD, EQ, and RS is complete idiocy. "Oh, lets use Rain Dance, but no stupid water moves. I just need a speed boost. I also want to get walled hard by anything with defense, or named Gligar."

If you put Hydro Pump on there (Please, no one whine about it's accuracy. It's good enough. Real men use 85% accuracy moves because they work), then the speed boost plus the Double STAB (from both STAB and Rand Dance) will destroy most anything in it's path. If it runs into special tanks, then it just rock slides. gg

Stantler most definatly is a CBer to be worried about. In fact, when I do my UU Tournament, if I ever meet you, I will use Stantler, and then own you hard. Intimidate + CB is freaking awesome. It's like Granbull, except it can actually attack first. Shadow Ball, Return, etc. Plus, it can Hypnosis. While it isn't accurate, it can still put it's counter to sleep (RE: Yes, use it with CB. People will think yours doesn't have CB, and thus not try to counter it as such. Also lack of a movepool anyway).

Quote:
and Reflect Solrck works better than CB rock, in my opinion.


Um, I never said CB Solrock was better than Reflect Solrock. I never said either was superior to eachother. What's your point? I meerly suggested Solrock as a CBer, because it does work. Also, CB Rock beats Relfect Rock 1v1 (I also find Shadow Ball on Rock to be more effective than Reflect anyway, because of Hypno, etc.). Reflect Rock sets up Reflect, CB Rock Shadow Balls. Reflect Rock tries to Rock Slide, but it doesn't do as much as Shadow Ball, and it's gg.

Also, Kirke, have you gotten your match done? If not, please try to do so.

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Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:28 pm
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lol, I love the arrogance.

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Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:10 pm
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Siphai wrote:
Well, like I said before, you can

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Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:42 pm
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you can wall in UU...but not as effectively(lack of a better word) as in OU.

UU is much more fast paced so walls aren't as needed...

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Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:37 pm
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Have you ever tried to take down a muk with a hypno? It takes many, many tries. There were times in stadium 2 where it took my mewtwo three psychics to KO a muk. Believe me, with out a good EQ, a muk will slow the match down a lot.

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Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:25 am
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daveshan wrote:
Have you ever tried to take down a muk with a hypno? It takes many, many tries. There were times in stadium 2 where it took my mewtwo three psychics to KO a muk. Believe me, with out a good EQ, a muk will slow the match down a lot.


lol gligar

Grumpig still beats it. If Grumpig is in before Muk, and Muk has to come in for a Haze, then that's likely 2CM's in already, which is most likely an ohko. It's not like Muk can do anything to it anyway, at least, not before Grumpig messes him up something awful.

Lastly, with all of those HP and Sp. Def evs, that means that Muk ends up with only 257 Atk. Seriously, he's not going to do anything now. Unlike Hypno who supports the team extremely well, or Grumpig who can special sweep like a champ. Muk just doesn't work, especially because of that EQ weakness.

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Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:55 am
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Given the right support or right moveset, CurseMuk works fairly well in UU.

Muk @ Leftovers
-Curse
-Rest
-Sludge Bomb
-[seccond attack move of choice (I'm a fan of HP Ghost)]

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Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:35 am
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Still...

Muk with Sludge Bomb and a low attack score with undoubtably Curse on the switch and then lol Steel Type + EQ for the win.

Matches are still faster in UU than in OU. You can count on it....

unless it is a boring as sin UU Stall Team.

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Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:01 am
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Nuetral777 wrote:
Still...

Muk with Sludge Bomb and a low attack score with undoubtably Curse on the switch and then lol Steel Type + EQ for the win.

Matches are still faster in UU than in OU. You can count on it....

unless it is a boring as sin UU Stall Team.


Even then, UU teams get desecrated on by normal teams.

Also, like Nuetral said, that Muk gets destroyed by Steel types with EQ. The most popular one is obviously Aggron (if they don't go with Focus Punch), which destroys this guy. Swords Dance Gligar / Pinsir / and especially Tentacruel destroys CurseMuk. Grumpig now owns it much more because you aren't putting as much EV's into Sp. Def (You'd put more into Attack for this). Seriously, Muk isn't as good idea as a Special Spoonge. It just gets out classed by better ones, like Hypno and Grumpig. Mr. Mime also beats it.

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Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:55 am
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ChroniclerC wrote:
Given the right support or right moveset, CurseMuk works fairly well in UU.

Muk @ Leftovers
-Curse
-Rest
-Sludge Bomb
-[seccond attack move of choice (I'm a fan of HP Ghost)]
Muk can learn shadow ball.

Ok so maybe I need to tweek the EV's a little and I'll give you the grumpig arguement, but saying that muks aren't good because of gligars and aggrons is like saying blisseys aren't good because of CBdactyls.

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Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:25 pm
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I wasn't saying that UU stall teams hold their own against OU teams. I was saying that, pace-wise, even Stalling UU Team vs. UU stall Team is faster than OU Team vs. OU Team.

Muk can't learn Shadow Ball...It can Shadow Punch but not Shadow Ball...Unless they fixed that in NB.

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Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:41 pm
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One of the things I love about UU is the variety. Almost any pokemon there can be used fairly effectively at times. Nevertheless, certain pokemon do stand out:

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Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:20 pm
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Lynx wrote:
One of the things I love about UU is the variety. Almost any pokemon there can be used fairly effectively at times. Nevertheless, certain pokemon do stand out:

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Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:03 am
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Let me explain why gligar isn't as good as you say it is. Its max speed is only 295 and that's with the proper nature. It's also ground and flying. Ice attacks make this thing look like a wimp and its special defense sucks.

Here is a list of UU pokemon that are either faster than it, have good special attack, and have ice attacks not including HP Ice or very strong against physical attacks, have good special attack, and have ice attacks not including HP Ice

Blastoise
Cloyster
Huntail
Lunatone
Mr. Mime
Sharpedo (granted its attack is higher, but still good Sp. Att for a UU)
Slowbro
Solrock
Tentacreul

Pay special attention to solrock and more attention to lunatone. All that gligars have to counter them is iron tail and that's a very uncommon move. Plus, one ice beam from lunatone and your gligar is out of there. Cloyster too is a big problem because of its uber-like defense and decent Sp. Att. Again, one ice beam and you're gone. Also, remember, this list is not including faster or resilient pokemon that often use HP ice like Raichu.

Sorry, gligars are good in UU granted. But they aren't that good.

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Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:15 am
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daveshan wrote:
Let me explain why gligar isn't as good as you say it is. Its max speed is only 295 and that's with the proper nature. It's also ground and flying. Ice attacks make this thing look like a wimp and its special defense sucks.

Here is a list of UU pokemon that are either faster than it, have good special attack, and have ice attacks not including HP Ice or very strong against physical attacks, have good special attack, and have ice attacks not including HP Ice

Blastoise
Cloyster
Huntail
Lunatone
Mr. Mime
Sharpedo (granted its attack is higher, but still good Sp. Att for a UU)
Slowbro
Solrock
Tentacreul

Pay special attention to solrock and more attention to lunatone. All that gligars have to counter them is iron tail and that's a very uncommon move. Plus, one ice beam from lunatone and your gligar is out of there. Cloyster too is a big problem because of its uber-like defense and decent Sp. Att. Again, one ice beam and you're gone. Also, remember, this list is not including faster or resilient pokemon that often use HP ice like Raichu.

Sorry, gligars are good in UU granted. But they aren't that good.


CLOYSTER IS BL! Look at the stupid list. SLOWBRO IS BL! Huntail also can't do anything because it sucks, no questions asked.

I don't think you get it at all. It's like saying Salamence sucks because it's 4X weak to Ice attacks. It's retarded. You obviously don't send it out against those Water types / guys who can learn Ice Punch or whatever. And Solrock is NOT a counter, because Gligar can just swords dance right in his face before Rock Sliding / Iron Tailing. God, it's like saying:

"pokemon doesn't work because pokemon counters it"

OF COURSE Water types will counter Gligar. But in the UU metagame, only

Grumpig (With Ice Punch, but it can't take too many EQ's or HP Fly's)
Blastoise
Lunatone
Mr. Mime (Not really because it can't switch in on Gligar)
Sharpedo (Same)
Tentacreul

Out of a metagame with about 150 pokemon, 6 pokemon (including the two that can't switch in on them; I'm looking at yoooou Sharpedo) actually counter it. Um, yeah. I can really see how Gligar isn't that good.

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Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:31 am
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Siphai wrote:
...I don't think you get it at all. It's like saying Salamence sucks because it's 4X weak to Ice attacks. It's retarded. You obviously don't send it out against those Water types / guys who can learn Ice Punch or whatever. And Solrock is NOT a counter, because Gligar can just swords dance right in his face before Rock Sliding / Iron Tailing. God, it's like saying:

"pokemon doesn't work because pokemon counters it"...

Yeah, but that's the kind of thing I see you saying all the time. In any case, if you want to go sing the praises about Gligar, feel free, just don't do it here. Go write a pokemon annalisis, or something. If Gligar was as hot as you say it is, then more people would pack HP Ice. And I'd be willing to bet that that "counter" list would be a lot bigger is the opposing player is smart enough to switch before you've set up, at which point it includes every poke on the list that can learn a water or ice type attack and take a hit or two.

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Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:13 am
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Siphai, your point-counter point with Lynx was rather unnessecary.

Those pokemon ARE standouts in UU. And trying to discredit some made you look like you have a grudge.

Also, Status Effects are ABUSED in UU because of the fact that Blissey isn't there.

Ampharos and Lanturn make up for the speed with longevity.

Amphy and Lanturn have rather high HP and decent Def/Sp.Def.

A high powered STAB EQ will still OHKO but other non-STAB'd attacks won't make them run in fear....

Encore works on Walrien, you just need prediction skillz.

What other Fighters in UU can SalacDrumSweep?

:)

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Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:37 am
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ChroniclerC wrote:
Yeah, but that's the kind of thing I see you saying all the time. In any case, if you want to go sing the praises about Gligar, feel free, just don't do it here. Go write a pokemon annalisis, or something. If Gligar was as hot as you say it is, then more people would pack HP Ice.


Who do you think made this topic? ugh, I can see who is paying attention :roll:

Gligar is the reason HP Ice is put on Electrode and Misdrevius. Gligar is the reason people put Ice Punch on Grumpig.

Quote:
And I'd be willing to bet that that "counter" list would be a lot bigger is the opposing player is smart enough to switch before you've set up, at which point it includes every poke on the list that can learn a water or ice type attack and take a hit or two.


wow, this makes less and less sense every time I read it. So, you think the counter list would be a lot bigger if the opposing play is smart enough to switch? How on EARTH does that make the counter list bigger? (Here's a hit: It doesn't)

"Including every poke that can learn a water or ice attack, and take a hit or two."

Grumpig (With Ice Punch, but it can't take too many EQ's or HP Fly's)
Blastoise
Lunatone
Mr. Mime (Not really because it can't switch in on Gligar)
Sharpedo (Same)
Tentacreul
Quagsire

Those are basically it. It includes Misdrevius, if you put HP Ice, and take away Tentacruel because his weakness to Earthquake. Oh, and I forgot Quagsire. That's basically 5 pokemon in the entire game. Grumpig, Blastoise, Lunaton, Misdrevious with HP Ice and Quagsire. With only 5 counters, out of over 150, I'd say that Gligar is a pretty sweet deal.

Also Neutral, I am sorry. I badmouthed some pokemon that don't deserve it (Golem, who is awesome. Forgive me for saying otherwise).

Also, yeah. I do see a wide variety of Toxicing, and Paraing pokes. However, Substitute is also very widely used in UU because of an obvious lack of clerics, thus demeaning Status again. I'm not saying it doesn't have a serious effect on UU, but to be honest, it's only used a bit more than in OU.

Ampharos and Lanturn ARE cool, don't get me wrong. It's just their lack luster speed vs. Ground types and Pinsir. They do get ohko'd a lot, despite Their good defenses.

I am not all that fond of Belly Drum, since it's just too easy for them to just take away the rest of the 50%. Linoone is a good example of this. Also Electrode defeats it =)

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Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:01 pm
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Siphai wrote:
CLOYSTER IS BL! Look at the stupid list. SLOWBRO IS BL! Huntail also can't do anything because it sucks, no questions asked.
Cloyster and Slowbro are accepted in the UU game because they are UU. The list that Smoogen has is faulty because you can't really say how many times a pokemon is and is not used. They just go by subjective observation.

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Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:53 pm
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