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 Guide to the Advanced Metagame 
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Bug Catcher
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I seem to be in the same park as Tobey. A win is a win, a loss is a loss. I agree that some wins and some losses aren't as meaningful as others as far as building up on your experience for future games. But I would never discount a win or loss like Nuetral777 does because I don't like their strategy.

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:47 pm
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I think the point Nuetral was making was that some wins could be avoided, and if luck hadn't interviened, the outcome would have been reversed. Speaking of luck, has anyone else ever had DoubleKick hit 3 times? Anyway, when I fight a team of 6 uubers (not that I do regularly), I will discount any loss. A victory would be great, but I havn't got the team or the time for it. Anyway, I suppose that if all the breaks went for me, I could credit my victory to luck. Otherwise, I would have to agree with you about it being skill getting you down to the last pokemon.

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Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:47 pm
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Tobey wrote:
Rock Slide has what percentage to flinch? Bite and Headbutt have a 30% but I don't think Rock Slide's is that high. Regardless, you can't Flinch lock with Rock Slide. Ever.


Rock Slide has a 30% chance of flinch just like Bite and Headbutt. Also try a Dugtrio with Rock Slide; he'd be able to flinch to death.

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Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:20 am
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Siphai wrote:
Tobey wrote:
Rock Slide has what percentage to flinch? Bite and Headbutt have a 30% but I don't think Rock Slide's is that high. Regardless, you can't Flinch lock with Rock Slide. Ever.


Rock Slide has a 30% chance of flinch just like Bite and Headbutt. Also try a Dugtrio with Rock Slide; he'd be able to flinch to death.


Make sure he was holding a King'sRock! :wink:

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Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:44 pm
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omg...Adamant Duggy isn't fast enough to flinchwhore. King's Rock makes baby jesus cry.

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Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:03 pm
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Have you noticed that Thunder Wave doesn't affect Ground pokes in some metagames? Totally ruined my 2v2 TWave-Facade combp.

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Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:09 pm
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Thunder Wave will never effect Ground Types. and Toxic+Facade works better.

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Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:00 pm
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Tobey wrote:
omg...Adamant Duggy isn't fast enough to flinchwhore. King's Rock makes baby jesus cry.


Too bad that there isn't a baby jesus to cry for Kings Rock :roll:

Dugtrio, with max speed, is able to be faster than most poke and should there for be able to be a competitive finchwhore for many of those slower poke. However, if Dugtrio isn't faster then Rockslide will just do what Rockslide normally does; damage. The fact that Dugtrio is able to be a finchwhore is what's great.

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Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:44 am
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Siphai wrote:

Too bad that there isn't a baby jesus to cry for Kings Rock :roll:

Dugtrio, with max speed, is able to be faster than most poke and should there for be able to be a competitive finchwhore for many of those slower poke. However, if Dugtrio isn't faster then Rockslide will just do what Rockslide normally does; damage. The fact that Dugtrio is able to be a finchwhore is what's great.


Duggy is bad without Max Attack, which means Adamant + 252 Atk + Choice Band. Choice Band pokemon can't hax other than critical hits. Dugtrio is also too slow to hax without a Jolly Nature. Then why not use a Jolly Nature? Because Dugtrio loses its only purpose. Adamant Duggy OHKO's Max Def Bold Bliss. Jolly Duggy does not..thus leaving it open for a nice Ice Beam to the face(most likely KOing it after it was switched in).

Dunsparce is the ONLY pokemon who can use Rock Slide to flinchhax...however Headbutt gets STAB and has 100% accuracy which VERY important as Dunsparce has nothing for stats.

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Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:04 pm
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Nice article. Heehee. I use Masquerain, Beautifly and some other of those almost never/never used Pokemon in my master parties. I feel special :)

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Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:25 pm
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There is nothing wrong with using those pokemon so long as you have fun. The terms "Never Used" are not saying don't ever use them, they are saying that people rarely use these pokemon.

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Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:44 pm
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i see some wrong things. they are mostly good, but if i see uu. im dissapointed.

because you have different groups of UU

you have:

OU
Bl / Top UU
Great UU
Average UU
Weak UU
NU

further annoyers fail in a competive enforment. blissey fails these days too. snorlax and regice are more used the last times on netbattle.
maybe if you have time for a battle you can pm me though. i like battling and kick your... nahh, just like to battle some strong guy :p
but no1 hase a guide for predicting ( almost ) because you must learn it yourself. Example. Medicham has a choice band. he uses hi jump kick and mcgar pops out and creates a sub. then you are doomed. but if you saw the gengar once, you can use shadow ball on uhm snorlax or blissey or something, it will probaly switch out and been hitted by shadow ball. with its poor defense it shouldnt be hard to ohko it.
further baton passers are bad, because there are many [p]hazers that like to roar it away ( except Ingrain smeargle and mr mine. although that mine is hazed or WW away ). further good guide but some of the ou mon list arent placed good.


Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:03 am
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Quote:
Regarding Uber Pokemon:

These are the only pokemon considered uber: Mew, Mewtwo, Ho-oh, Lugia, Lati@s(with Soul Dew), Groudon, Kyogre, Deoxys(all forms), Wobbuffet.

Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm just trying to understand the terminology used here. What exactly does "uber" mean and what qualifies a pokemon as "uber"?


Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:14 pm
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flyquaza wrote:
i see some wrong things. they are mostly good, but if i see uu. im dissapointed.

because you have different groups of UU

you have:

OU
Bl / Top UU
Great UU
Average UU
Weak UU
NU

further annoyers fail in a competive enforment. blissey fails these days too. snorlax and regice are more used the last times on netbattle.
maybe if you have time for a battle you can pm me though. i like battling and kick your... nahh, just like to battle some strong guy :p
but no1 hase a guide for predicting ( almost ) because you must learn it yourself. Example. Medicham has a choice band. he uses hi jump kick and mcgar pops out and creates a sub. then you are doomed. but if you saw the gengar once, you can use shadow ball on uhm snorlax or blissey or something, it will probaly switch out and been hitted by shadow ball. with its poor defense it shouldnt be hard to ohko it.
further baton passers are bad, because there are many [p]hazers that like to roar it away ( except Ingrain smeargle and mr mine. although that mine is hazed or WW away ). further good guide but some of the ou mon list arent placed good.

Pass to Octillery or Cradily then. They can't be pHazed (suction cups ability) but haze still works on them.

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Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:16 am
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when you say "never used pokemon" does that mean you are saying theyre bad? because i have a very powerful tropius and he is in the never used catagory. he is a powerful pokemon, and i hope you're saying he's not bad, simply underestimated

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Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:34 am
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AbsolNightmare wrote:
when you say "never used pokemon" does that mean you are saying theyre bad? because i have a very powerful tropius and he is in the never used catagory. he is a powerful pokemon, and i hope you're saying he's not bad, simply underestimated


NU means they just are never used. Be it Stat totals or the pokemon being purely outclassed. I never said they were bad. NU Teams are EXTREMELY fun to use.

Sandragon wrote:
Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm just trying to understand the terminology used here. What exactly does "uber" mean and what qualifies a pokemon as "uber"?


Ubers are pokemon with stat totals of 670 or higher, save Slacking and including Lati@s with Soul Dew.

flyquaza wrote:
i see some wrong things. they are mostly good, but if i see uu. im dissapointed.

because you have different groups of UU

you have:

OU
Bl / Top UU
Great UU
Average UU
Weak UU
NU


You are saying I should break the list into more pieces?

Quote:
further annoyers fail in a competive enforment.


True. Annoyers do fail because of Sub. However, too many people here LOVE the idea of annoyers so there is no point arguing.

Quote:
blissey fails these days too. snorlax and regice are more used the last times on netbattle.


lol. Blissey doesn't fail because it can counter Duggy and Gengar now. Ice Beam is slowly creeping onto more and more Blissey. Snorlax and Regice are seeing more play because both Trash Suicune with ease.

Quote:
maybe if you have time for a battle you can pm me though. i like battling and kick your... nahh, just like to battle some strong guy :p
but no1 hase a guide for predicting ( almost ) because you must learn it yourself. Example. Medicham has a choice band. he uses hi jump kick and mcgar pops out and creates a sub. then you are doomed. but if you saw the gengar once, you can use shadow ball on uhm snorlax or blissey or something, it will probaly switch out and been hitted by shadow ball. with its poor defense it shouldnt be hard to ohko it.
further baton passers are bad, because there are many [p]hazers that like to roar it away ( except Ingrain smeargle and mr mine. although that mine is hazed or WW away ). further good guide but some of the ou mon list arent placed good.


I'll up the list later in the day. No one needs a guide on predicting because it is common sense. Baton Passing isn't bad when combined with a flawless strat and great prediction.

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Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:19 am
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I'd just like to say something in relation to the posts that appeared earlier in this discussion.

Every one is saying all this stuff about luck being an unfair or unworthy way to win. In that case every battle is unfair, because the entire pokemon game is based on probability.

Focus band has only 10% chance to work, yes that is quite low, but what about attacks like rockslide and thunderbolt? TB has only a 10% chance to paralyze, if you lost because of that paralysis would you still say it was luck that made you lose?

Every attack in the game boils down to luck, Tackle, for instance, has 95% accuracy, but the 5% chance to miss is always there and has reared it's ugly head on me quite often.

Every attack you launch, with a few exceptions, has the chance to miss or score a critical hit, if you won because you used focus energy then slash, would you consider it luck or skill?

Skill= creating effective movesets
Luck= relying on those movesets to win, as you have no idea which attack will miss or hit or what else may happen.

In short, every battle is, to a degree, random and un predictable.

Sorry about bringing this up again, i just had to get this off my back.


Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:35 am
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Skill is the ability to rely on luck as little as possible. For example, why do you never see Horn Drill in an movesets? You can't depend on it to hit. If somebody uses Zap Cannon and it hits, it could have easily missed and wasted that person's turn. Really, if you want to rely on luck, than you'll have to take penalty of luck not working your way sometimes, too. For example, say you used Thunderbolt and it paralyzed. You'd also been taking the chance of it not paralyzing all the times before, right? If you win becuase of luck (say it was a 10% chance), you also had a 90% chance of not winning because of luck. In conclusion, if you try to depend on luck to work in your favor to win, then you also take the consequences of it not working in your favor. Why do people always use Thunderbolt > Thunder?. Luck with Thunderbolt is an 100% chance in your favor (Excluding Double Team and such). Luck with Thunder is 70% chance in your favor, 30% chance not in your favor (Excluding Double Team and such).

Okay, I'm done.

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Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:04 am
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Yume's long-winded opinion for those interested:

That's true, but still, if you gamble and win it doesn't make your entire victory invalid. Winning on a 10% chance is no less of a win than any other way. After all, the entire game is, to some extent, based on chance. If there was no element of chance, we wouldn't need to play at all. We'd just sit down with our calculators, add up the stats and the probabilities, and give the win to whoever would have won on average. But that's no fun, and it's not exactly fair, either, beause averages are hypothetical and we don't live in a hypothetical world.
It's just like a basketball game. Say a team is down by two with three seconds left on the clock. It looks like it's all over. Then they steal the ball, someone makes a desperate half-court shot at the buzzer, and by pure chance it goes in. Now, you could dismiss that as luck and say they "shouldn't have won." But that's trivializing the rest of the game, making it seem as if nothing mattered but that last basket. It's the same with Pokemon. True, someone may KO your last pokemon with a lucky shot. But in order to be in a position to win, they must have had some skill. It's not as if they're relying entirely on dumb luck. I doubt anyone would give a pokemon Zap Cannon as its only offensive move. They've made a gamble in combination with their other strategies, and it paid off. And yes, you take the consequences and lose sometimes. But if you're going to say those losses are real, it's only fair to say the wins are real as well.

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Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:24 pm
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I agree with you totally, Yumecosmos. Especially this point:

Yumecosmos wrote:
But in order to be in a position to win, they must have had some skill.

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Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:36 pm
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I agree too, but the common consensus is that it takes skill as well as some elements of luck to win. No one can depend on skills or luck alone.

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Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:48 pm
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It works like this. When people are of an equal skill level, the battle will only be determined by luck. However, if someone of great skill went against some one who just began to play, luck would have nothing to do with anything there. Skill is what carries the weight of the battle not luck. Luck is there for making people whine and complain while making people's day a little better.

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Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:32 am
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hey neutral, have you thought about seperating your UU/BL list on the guide into seperate lists for UU and BL

also, i just noticed, you have Forretress on both your OU and your UU/BL lists

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Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:27 pm
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Lynx wrote:
hey neutral, have you thought about seperating your UU/BL list on the guide into seperate lists for UU and BL

also, i just noticed, you have Forretress on both your OU and your UU/BL lists


o_0? Swim practice has officially destroyed my brain.

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Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:57 pm
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Quick Claw is closer to 24% activation.

Regice as a special wall cannot wall Rain Dancers and Sunny Day + Fire Blast as well as people think.

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Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:32 pm
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