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 Guide to the Advanced Metagame 
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Dragon Tamer
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There. That is exatly the point I was trying to come across. Some times, luck items will work better than anything else and some times not. That's with all items as you cannot predict every situation and therefor shouldn't have to rely on special itesm all that much.

Also, if I were to beat you on netbattle thanks to my (say) Torkoal making use of Quick Claw then you lose. It doesn't matter if it happend by luck or skill, you lost so you shouldn't have to bother with the rematch. And the rematch wouldn't prove that the 'luck is gone'. Each match is different, so you wouldn't have the same situation again to prove that the luck there wouldn't work twice. Even if you did, there is a chance that it could work every single time you did it.

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Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:16 pm
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Neutral777, you wouldn't happen to go by the name Storm Elite Blade on NetBattle, would you?

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:37 am
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I go by the name Nuetral777 on Netbattle. My brother goes by Tobey or Tobey777.

Removing a Quick Claw/Focus Band/Double Team from Competitive Battling stumps the creativity as much as banning the uber pokemon. Post a moveset. With the Quick Claw. Maybe I'm just not getting your logic here. All I've been reading is "Luck Based Wins", "We use the item but don't count on it working", "Stunts creativity", "Never is a harsh word". Never means Never. I will not change it. A word isn't harsh unless you make it so.

Technically yes you would have won with the said Torkoal. However, if I rematched...and beat you everytime after...wouldn't that say something? Luck Based wins aren't wins. Because ANYONE can get lucky. Skill is something you earn. You earn wins. Luck doesn't earn you anything but a boost to your pride over a chanced win. I'm glad you feel like a true winner when your 10% chance to win beat my Starmie against your Torkoal...however...I would know, and anyone who read the logs would know, that I had won. You won only because a 10% chance kicked in.

Ancientpower has a 10% chance of boosting all stats. 60 BP. 5/8 PP(depending on PP Max). I think it is 90 with STAB. Do you ever use the move for that 10% chance to boost? No. You use it for lack of Rock Slide/Blast and you've used your Hidden Power on something more important. It is a decent Rock-type move. The boost is just there for show. The point you are trying to make, yes? Okay. That works...with an attack that is useful anyway. Quick Claw does NOTHING until you get a boost. Focus Band works only when your are going to be KO'd and that 10% chance kicks in to spare you 1 HP. That is too situational for my taste. 10% just sucks anyway. Neither of them do ANYTHING until you get that lucky 10%. That is why they are bad. Leftovers recovers HP each turn. Choice Band raises physical power. Salac boosts Speed at 25 or less% HP. Liechi boosts attack at 25 or less% HP. They are also 100%. Why choose 10% over 100%. Luck has no place in competitive play.

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:22 pm
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Quick Claw and Focus Band just suck and waste a itemslot. Things that are WAY more important than a hold item. Such as the moveset.

Double Team is for HAIPER BEEM noobs. If you want to play like a skillful player, ditch it. If you want to Hax your winning streak then by all means get flamed like crazy.

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:58 pm
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Untested, but here's a quickly written example:

Dusclops @ Quick Claw
EVs 252 SP.DEF/252 DEF/6ATK

Pain Split
D-bond (yes, I'm pretty sure both can be bred on to the same duskull via a misdreavus)
S-ball
Body Slam/HP Fighting/Return

Pain Split as this tank's healing move means that he heals more the fewer hit points he has left, so EVs are put into defenses and lefties are left off to make best use of its ability to cause damage AND heal (particularly delicious against blissey, but I digress) Two solid physical attacks- the lovely STABbed S-ball and either a solid normal attack or HP-fighting- I happen to prefer the latter option since it does a lovely job of taking out those annoying dark types. Because of its very low speed, Dusclops rarely has a chance to benefit much from a liechi berry, so quick claw instead gives you a nice 10% chance of taking your opponent down with you with D-bond- not a guarantee at all, but it can be aggravating that one-in-ten times that it works, and Dusclops can hold his own even if it doesn't do a thing.

- - - - - - - - - -

Tobey wrote:
...dude...Nuetral...you can't argue for snot.


Nuetral has been arguing with statistics and examples to back up his opinions, which I respect. If you want to support him, do the same, "Quick Claw and Focus Band just suck and waste a itemslot" is not better debating than what Nuetral has been doing, and it's not going to teach or convince anyone. No one wants a flame war to erupt on this sticky, please do not personally attack people for using attacks or strategies here or anywhere else on psypoke.

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:29 pm
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Well, it so happens that I'm a mod here, so... Well, let's just say the Edit button is a handy function :P . We're fine with the healthy debate going on here, but don't stir up a flame war with such comments, Tobey :D

Luck based wins are still wins IMO. It's not as though the player cheated. He gambled, and, because of his luck, his gamble paid off, and he goes on to win. Doesn't the credit go to him for daring to gamble? If I lost to an opponent that was lucky, I would accept my defeat and won't think "Oh, he won. Hey, he had a Quick Claw and a Focus Band, and used Double Team. Oh, that means I'm the winner actually. Yay."

What I'm trying to say is that Quick Claw and Focus Band are less useful than items such as Salac Berry and Leftovers, but to condemn them as bad items, albeit with some justification, would be unfair. A simple sentence to discourage their use would have sufficed.

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:17 pm
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Off Topic: HAHA HA! yous guys totally checked my little brother...but I warn you...now he will be more serious in his efforts...But he won't start a flame war. I'll watch him on that one.

On Topic:

Gryphflame wrote:
Dusclops @ Quick Claw
EVs 252 SP.DEF/252 DEF/6ATK

Pain Split
D-bond (yes, I'm pretty sure both can be bred on to the same duskull via a misdreavus)
S-ball
Body Slam/HP Fighting/Return


This set...is pretty bad. You probably knew that as you said it was quickly written...You'd have to give it more Atk Evs to make the use of Shadow Ball and HP:Fighting(Focus Punch with work better). Why waste that Dusclops learns Will-o-Wisp? Take some Def Evs and throw them into attack...then give it Will-o-Wisp > Destiny Bond. BAM. Standard Dusclop only because of it being more effective. However...Dusclops has one major flaw. Sandstorm. Tyraniboah(though dwindling in popularity) is still running rampant. Sandstream would rip at its HP(which it does have a lot of so EVs in that area isn't a bad idea). You'd need just a well place HP:Ghost, Shadow Ball, or Crunch to slice off a decent chunk of this guys HP and he'd just be sand fodder. Sure Pain Split would help...but...you'd still keep losing HP via Sandstorm. D-bond would be useless as indirect damage doesn't kick in its effect. What would cease the Sandstorm's damage? Leftovers. This would save the pokemon from "losing" HP every turn because it is losing 1/16 of its health from the sandstorm...then gaining it back from the Leftovers. Thus Dusclops's HP wouldn't go down due to Sandstorm. Thus they would need to hit you with an attack that would drop you to less than 1/16 of your HP for the storm to KO or they'd get KO'd by D-bond(assuming you never changed the set).


Off Topic Again:
Gryphflame wrote:
Tobey wrote:
...dude...Nuetral...you can't argue for snot.



Nuetral has been arguing with statistics and examples to back up his opinions, which I respect. If you want to support him, do the same, "Quick Claw and Focus Band just suck and waste a itemslot" is not better debating than what Nuetral has been doing, and it's not going to teach or convince anyone. No one wants a flame war to erupt on this sticky, please do not personally attack people for using attacks or strategies here or anywhere else on psypoke.


That had me laughing for at least 45 minutes.

sN0wBaLL wrote:
Well, it so happens that I'm a mod here, so... Well, let's just say the Edit button is a handy function :P. We're fine with the healthy debate going on here, but don't stir up a flame war with such comments, Tobey :D


This was another 45 minutes of me laughing at my brother. Thank you both for making my day.

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:20 pm
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If you can say every hax item is relying on luck or hope, you are against everything that this game is about: predictions(hoping something will happen because you think it will), chance(is it worth the chance in using fire blast over flamethrower to ohko skarm soemtimes), variety(is that snorlax curselax or should I be preparing for substitute), and of course fun. Is every user of counter and rock slide as bad as that dtbreon? What even makes dtbreon that bad? You? You say you don't have an elitist attitude too but it shows that you do. You think in your mind that every person using anything without a 100%/dash in accuracy is somehow undeserving of a win they get on you when they use what the game has given them. Just because someone crossed the line in the center of the arena and stole your mana orb as you backed up to take less damage from that trampler, are you going to quit and declare yourself the winner? Who are you to say that something should never be in the game? A solid moveset with a situational item causing your loss does not make you the winner. Just as you take the chance that your leftovers or salac berry will work in your favor, he/she takes the chance that their focus band will matter. Just because your item helps out more often, does that mean that when another item shows its usefulness in a situation that it should somehow not count? Just another angry idiot that calls his 80-80 record a 120-40 because he

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Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:47 pm
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HaxChieftain wrote:
If you can say every hax item is relying on luck or hope, you are against everything that this game is about: predictions(hoping something will happen because you think it will), chance(is it worth the chance in using fire blast over flamethrower to ohko skarm soemtimes), variety(is that snorlax curselax or should I be preparing for substitute), and of course fun. Is every user of counter and rock slide as bad as that dtbreon? What even makes dtbreon that bad? You? You say you don't have an elitist attitude too but it shows that you do. You think in your mind that every person using anything without a 100%/dash in accuracy is somehow undeserving of a win they get on you when they use what the game has given them. Just because someone crossed the line in the center of the arena and stole your mana orb as you backed up to take less damage from that trampler, are you going to quit and declare yourself the winner? Who are you to say that something should never be in the game? A solid moveset with a situational item causing your loss does not make you the winner. Just as you take the chance that your leftovers or salac berry will work in your favor, he/she takes the chance that their focus band will matter. Just because your item helps out more often, does that mean that when another item shows its usefulness in a situation that it should somehow not count? Just another angry idiot that calls his 80-80 record a 120-40 because he

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Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:34 am
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The point I'm trying to make about luck-based items that I think Hax was touching on with his notes about predictions is that they need to be used logically, with some attention to probility. Is a one in ten chance to do some serious damage with d-bond/explosion/overheat/hyper beam/*insert your favorite last-ditch attack here* worth the risk of giving up a more consistent, expected item like leftovers? Will the element of surprise help keep your opponent guessing, and will that work to your advantage enough to merit the risk?

Let's say you switch in a dusclops, and your opponent thinks "Oh, this must be a toxi/burn-staller" because that's what all dusclopses tend to be. They prepare as such, and by the time they realize this one doesn't have leftovers they need to waste an extra turn switching in a sandstormer, and an extra turn after that to start the storm, during which dusclops is sapping up their health with pain spit and shadow ball (potentially powered with some extra EVs in attack, I just tend to like a defensive EV set) and you're in a position to sweep them up before their sandstorm has time to kill you off, with a bonus chance of striking first every ten turns.

The reason that things like Quick Claw work is that no one expects them, because it's only one in a hundred movesets built to work around it. I'd be a little upset if some n00b with a team of legendaries sporting quick claws for no apparent reason killed off my 'jask before he passed, just because one managed to get lucky, but if someone beat me with a d-bond/explosion/overheat/hyper beam/*insert your favorite last-ditch attack here* that got in because of a quick claw I didn't expect, I'd just congratulate them on a battle well fought. They took a calculated risk, and it paid off- just because it was a gamble doesn't mean it was done at random or without knowledge of the competitive gaming community.

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Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:14 am
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Gryphflame wrote:
Let's say you switch in a dusclops, and your opponent thinks "Oh, this must be a toxi/burn-staller" because that's what all dusclopses tend to be.


You made a decent point. However, in today's metagame, Dusclops usually carry a Focus Punch. Thus NORMAL people who know to NEVER throw a T-tar into that mess. Clops may have no attack stat...but FP has 150 Base...which translates to 600 after weakness. Then Clops's nothing Attack Stat OHKOs a T-tar. This situation has too many variables. What if T-tar was already out? What if Dusclops doesn't know Focus Punch? Blah blah blah. Point is, Quick Claw, be it calculated risk or just because it sounds cool, is as about reliable as a naked mole rat doing your chores. The Metagame isn't about last ditch efforts because by then it is too late. You need to get the pokemon out and set up ASAP. You don't predict correctly and your sunk. Use what you want. This is just a guide. He is just trying to give people a better start in today's metagame.

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Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:57 am
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I think that Gryphflame had a good point. If you use a moveset that everyone else is using, you can run into a couter-pokemon rather quickly. I don't think that there is such a thing as a "perfect" moveset, because part of the thrill (for me) of online battling is that I never know what each opponent is going to throw at me. (True, I end up loosing most of the time, but I have fun. :D ) I think that a startling moveset can be one of the key figures between victory and defeat.

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Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:37 am
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Skytune wrote:
I think that Gryphflame had a good point. If you use a moveset that everyone else is using, you can run into a couter-pokemon rather quickly. I don't think that there is such a thing as a "perfect" moveset, because part of the thrill (for me) of online battling is that I never know what each opponent is going to throw at me. (True, I end up loosing most of the time, but I have fun. :D ) I think that a startling moveset can be one of the key figures between victory and defeat.


As long as you have a set that works. Throwing the "Good on Paper" sets around will smack you down...HARD. Also, The standards are standards because even though everyone uses them...they are EXTREMELY effective and even though there are counters, they can still be trouble to handle.

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Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:51 am
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I know I know. My point was similar to Gryphflame's when she talked about how setting up for a {dusclops} could be messed up by changing its moveset and item.

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Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:46 am
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Gryphflame wrote:
They prepare as such, and by the time they realize this one doesn't have leftovers they need to waste an extra turn switching in a sandstormer, and an extra turn after that to start the storm, during which dusclops is sapping up their health with pain spit and shadow ball (potentially powered with some extra EVs in attack, I just tend to like a defensive EV set) and you're in a position to sweep them up before their sandstorm has time to kill you off, with a bonus chance of striking first every ten turns.


Gryphflame wrote:

The reason that things like Quick Claw work is that no one expects them, because it's only one in a hundred movesets built to work around it.


It doesn't tkae THAT long to realize that a Dusclops doesn't have leftovers. As soon as you switch in your anti-tank pokemon and whack the thing with Knock Off, it doesn't matter what the item is because it is now gone. Also, no one would do all the work JUST to get a sandstorm going. That would be a completely waste of a few good turns. In that situation, I would throw out a sweeper and hit you with Shadow Ball/HP:Ghost. Dusclops has pretty low HP so it will take of a nice fat chunk...then you won't gain it back. Ever. Another thing I would do is throw a Sceptile into Dusclops and then Sub up. Afterwards I would Leech Seed and wait. Dusclops can do anything to Subs.

Thinks like Quick Claw DON'T work. When you build a set around a Quick Claw, your are pretty much using a set that would work 10% of the time. There has never been, nor will there ever be, a decent set that used Quick Claw as Leftovers and Choice Band ALWAYS do better. Same goes for Focus Band, Brightpowder, and King's Rock.

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Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:58 am
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Okay seriously. Have you EVER seen a moveset with Knock Off? I know I haven't... ever. Neither have I seen one with Theif or Covet... they just don't work well and are too uncommon. I'm sure you'd meet at least one, but it's so uncommon that you might as well not bother about it.

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Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:42 am
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This is what I'm talking about. If the items/moves are so bad, then that is the price they pay for using the items. They deserve credit for using the item/move and being bold enough to take such a chance. If the items they use suck so bad, then you do NOT have the right to say "Oh, I win because their items are inferior." And to say you would win the next game is also quite stupid because for everything that you think you know about their build, they also think they know about yours so it would be a different game. Even if you made the same moves, they would deal slightly different damages. Even they did the same damages, they STILL have the chance of their item working again. What you say is just ignorant.

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Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:20 pm
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Siphai wrote:
Okay seriously. Have you EVER seen a moveset with Knock Off? I know I haven't... ever. Neither have I seen one with Theif or Covet... they just don't work well and are too uncommon. I'm sure you'd meet at least one, but it's so uncommon that you might as well not bother about it.


Um...actually. Hariyama, Armaldo, and Banette are the BEST users of Knock Off. Thief and Covet are just plain bad. Knock Off's Tech is awesome. No more Choice Band. No more Leftovers. No more pinch berry. They can just smite anything that wants to tank too. It is the same deal as Rapid Spin and Spikes/Seed.

HaxChieftain wrote:
This is what I'm talking about. If the items/moves are so bad, then that is the price they pay for using the items. They deserve credit for using the item/move and being bold enough to take such a chance. If the items they use suck so bad, then you do NOT have the right to say "Oh, I win because their items are inferior." And to say you would win the next game is also quite stupid because for everything that you think you know about their build, they also think they know about yours so it would be a different game. Even if you made the same moves, they would deal slightly different damages. Even they did the same damages, they STILL have the chance of their item working again. What you say is just ignorant.


That is like saying someone deserves Credit for having Magikarp in their team. You get zero credit points for having Quick Claw/Focus Band/Bright powder/King's Rock/Double Team. So meh. The only time someone would actually get credit for a Magikarp on their team..is if it sweeps 6-0. Unless some slow as Sin Bellylax gets the Quick Claw effect 6 times in a row to sweep an entire team will I give someone's luck credit. Luck doesn't win battles. Skill does. You earn the win, not hax it.

Also, you would BOTH know each other's team's build. That put no one at an advantage. So that just cancelled out your statement there. Oh and yes, If the hold items are inferior, their chances to win go down some points. You make a team that has sets with pokemon using Quick Claw, Focus Band, ect. and My brother will face you with his team or I'll hit you with team Shampoo and we will see if luck beats skill.

Thanks to my little brother, Tobey, for helping me with the Pokemon Lists and the Whole Pinch Berry deal.

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Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:38 pm
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You're welcome. Now I can get bad to being the evil little brother by saying this: You need to edit in about annoyers. They are just hax. Seriously. T-Wave, Attract, Confuse Ray, Surf on a Lanturn serious Tees me off. I also think you and I should make a Competitive Moveset Guide. I mean we have nearly all the pokemon perfectly trained for competitive play in both our game paks. You up for it?

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Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:22 pm
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A few things. First of all, my statement was that both players have new knowledge which means that the game WILL be different so they may or may not be in the same situation as before where the quickclaw/whatever goes off. I am saying that you cannot just ignore every match you lose to a little bad luck, be it DT, quickclaw, or what have you. I would never use any of them(except quick claw if item clause is on) simply because they suck, not because I have any moral issues with it like you do. That doesn't mean that every time someone gets me in a flinch lock with rock slide or something that I can discount or discredit their victory. Every hax-like win is STILL a win, regardless of your personal feelings. Also, stop with the generic "skill>luck" crap because it is not a consistent truth. It is only a general rule for move+item selection because nintendo luckily made sure to underpower most "hax" moves and items to keep them in check.

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Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:23 pm
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HaxChieftain wrote:
A few things. First of all, my statement was that both players have new knowledge which means that the game WILL be different so they may or may not be in the same situation as before where the quickclaw/whatever goes off. I am saying that you cannot just ignore every match you lose to a little bad luck, be it DT, quickclaw, or what have you. I would never use any of them(except quick claw if item clause is on) simply because they suck, not because I have any moral issues with it like you do. That doesn't mean that every time someone gets me in a flinch lock with rock slide or something that I can discount or discredit their victory. Every hax-like win is STILL a win, regardless of your personal feelings. Also, stop with the generic "skill>luck" crap because it is not a consistent truth. It is only a general rule for move+item selection because nintendo luckily made sure to underpower most "hax" moves and items to keep them in check.


Needless to say this bit had me in tears I was laughing so hard. Dude, you are agreeing with us. My brother is a fool who was giving a simple senario without being more descriptive. That is why he can't argue worth anything. Skill does beat out luck. Rock Slide has what percentage to flinch? Bite and Headbutt have a 30% but I don't think Rock Slide's is that high. Regardless, you can't Flinch lock with Rock Slide. Ever. Hax and Hax-like are different. Losing because some n00b double team's then slowly swept doesn't mean crap. Losing because Aero used Rock Slide and flinched your Snorlax then RS'd again for the KO doesn't mean you lost because of luck. You just out and out lost on that round.

How about I do this: Skill will ALWAYS beat luck. In a match where SKILL is verses SKILL, Whoever catches ONE lucky break(be it them being more skillful or just the other person being stupid) will more than likely win. Not because of the lucky break per se, more because they were skillful enough to take advantage of the opponent's blunder. Somethings can be considered as lucky even though they aren't really. There is always gray. blah blah blah. Are you happy now?

Nuetral is going through his boxes and loading them onto NetBattle. We will have a Competitive Moveset Guide ready soon.

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Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:31 pm
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Yah I'm happy. I guess your bro and I misunderstood eachother. The thing I was disagreeing about was that a loss is a loss even if you lost to hax. While it may or may not mean anything, you can't just scratch it out and say you won that game. I agree there is some gray about whether the loss means something or not since there is enough randomness with crits, chance effects, accuracy, that .85-1.00 randomness in damage that you can never just say you lost to luck. But regardless of whether the loss means something or not, it IS a loss and that is the point I was trying to make.

OT: Since you play on your gamepaks it would seem, what do you think I should do for this sala I'm breeding with DragonDance, EarthQuake, AerialAce, FireBlast. I already breeded 31's in Attack and Speed. I'm wondering whether you think its necesary to breed for the 31 in SA for the FireBlast or if it retains enough juice without IV's to try to get a 31 in HP instead? Also, it is likely going to be adament which further concerns me about his SA

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Most amount of times in a row I have flipped heads on a Florida State Quarter: 17

I plan to beat that soon. :D


Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:56 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:46 pm
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meh. Nuetral is obsessed with the whole,"Everyone gets what they've earned" deal. So to him, if you earn the win and lose because of luck, it isn't right. Don't mind that. It is why I stomp Nuetral in everything he is good at.

We are going to post the Competitive Moveset Guide tomorrow. We will start with Venusaur and go through, hopefully, Electrode. We got stuff to do tomorrow so it will seemed rushed but it should serve its purpose.

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:24 am
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Dragon Tamer
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Tobey, it seems to me that you are using language I don't really appreciate on this site. Please use cleaner language, and I'm sure we'll all enjoy it more. As to your point, luck, by nature, is not consistant. I like it when it works, and live when it doesn't. I think you should plan around your pokemon, not around an item or effects of moves. And if you lost, you lost. In a battle, there are many "might-haves", but they didn't happen, so they don't matter. I don't like the way that you are turning this thread into an (flaming) argument, so please stick with the topic.

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:43 pm
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Dragon Tamer
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:46 pm
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I'm not flaming anyone. I'm sorry I have a point of view and I don't sugarcoat things. I just give my say. I'm not using profanity either. I've made sure not to use any here. So I don't get what you mean by cleaner language.

If you think you should plan around the pokemon...then you have the right idea. Sets, EVs, and Hold Items are determined by the pokemon's Base stats. For me, a loss is a loss and a win is a win and a tie is a loss. However losing to someone because of some stupid hax isn't truely a big deal in my book. I could give a snot if I smite your team and you win by luck. If we are down to 1 on 1 and you get the luck..you win. Obviously, you had some skill to get me down to that last pokemon, right?

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Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:13 pm
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