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 Guide to the Advanced Metagame 
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Dragon Tamer
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GUIDE TO ZE METAGAME!!

Firstly, the Metagame is Netbattle or RSBot. Google them to find out information on each one. These are places for battling other people online competitively.

Regarding Standard Pokemon and Movesets:

Some people have noticed Standard Movesets. As you know, they are the suggested sets the Raters give in the RMT thread. The reason they are standard is because they work. If you think about it, try to come up with your own set for a pokemon that actually works and then think. How many people have thought of this set already? Then, go to some other pokemon forums and see if the set you thought of is there. Believe me, thinking up your own original set that actually works isn't easy. And if you do actually come up with a set that indeed works and is 100% original...guess what, you've made a new standard. Standard Pokemon are the same. They are pokemon that are extremely good at what they do. An example is Skarmory and Blissey. They are extremely good at what they do best.

Regarding the Use of Toxic:

Because of the extreme use of Clerics in today's metagame, Toxic is now used slightly. Toxi-shuffling doesn't work for two reasons. Heal Bell and Aromatherapy. Those two moves clear the team of any and all status ailments. This makes a Toxi-shuffler useless. Toxistalling doesn't work as well either unless coupled with Mean Look and the opponent doesn't know Rest. Natural Cure, Steel and Poison-types, Heal Bell, Aromatherapy, Rest, Substitute, Refresh, and Guts make Toxic a not so fun idea.

Regarding Rain Dance and Sunny Day:

Rain Dance and Sunny Day, while good with Swift Swim and Chlorophyll, ask for a Blissey/Regice switch in. They also can allow certain pokemon a nice advantage over your own pokemon. All Chlorophyll pokemon hate Fire-type attacks and Sunny Day powers them up which allows for a bad situation. Rain Dance powers up Water attacks and makes Thunder a 100% accurate attack. Although most pokemon use Thunderbolt over Thunder, some pokemon DO carry Thunder to counter Suicune. In either case, Blissey can suck in any special attack thrown at it and Regice can do the same. The use of the moves should be avoided unless on a UU or NU team.

Pokemon that look great but actually don't do well:

Kingdra-This pokemon has a type combo that makes Water pokemon dance with joy. It can be Ice Beam'd to death while doing nothing to any water-type. It could use Rain Dance..but would be forced to switch after being confronted with a Blissey/Water Type.
Ninetales-One word. Blissey. This pokemon can't do anything the moment Blissey walks into the field.
Shuckle-It boasts extremely nice Def and Sp.Def but has no HP. While it takes minor damage from an attack, that minor damage will infact KO it. It also has nothing for a movepool.
Charizard-Great pokemon in BL/UU play however Thunderbolt, Surf, and Rock Slide are extremely common attacks and this pokemon has a weakness to all three. It can Sp.Sweep, Dragon Dance, CB, and counter Skarm-Bliss...but so many other pokemon do it better that this pokemon is just outclassed all around.
Registeel-It is simply outclassed by many other pokemon and its movepool is lacking. It lacks good STAB as well.

Team Staples:

All teams need to be able to counter some of the following pokemon or pokemon teams. This is in OU play only.

SkarmBliss
Tyraniboah/DDtar
Suicune/Raikou
Zapdos
Heracross
CB Salamence/DD Salamence
Celebi
Jirachi
Metagross
Curselax
Sub/Endure-Reversal/Flail(although not used very commonly)

SkarmBliss and Tyraniboah can be countered with just a Blaziken. So you won't waste a team making counters.

Every Team must have these following jobs filled if they are going to survive the metagame:

Physical Wall/Sponge - A pokemon that can take physical hits like they are nothing. Usually the pokemon will have Rest/Pain Split. Weezing and Skarmory are good examples.
Special Wall/Sponge - A pokemon can take special attacks like they are nothing. Blissey is a good example.
Offense - Easy to understand. If you can't mount any offensive play..you've lost.

Regarding Frail and Injured pokemon:

It may seem that a pokemon with 1HP is useless and should just be sacrificed. Most times this will be fine..but in the case of a CBer like Aerodactyl, the pokemon retains its usefulness as it is only outsped by 2 pokemon, thus it cans till OHKO most pokemon on a team without having to worry. To sacrifice a pokemon when it isn't necessary is extremely bad as it lowers your chance to win by one more pokemon.

You may be wondering how you throw a frail pokemon into battle without it being smacked down before it can even get ready. This takes prediction skills but you switch a frail, yet powerful pokemon in on a Haze, Rest, or other recovery move and you can begin to smite with the new pokemon.

Regarding Annoyers:

I don't really have a personal beef with these pokemon but I should say that they shold be avoided as most as possible. Annoyers usually have frial defenses and rely on the hopes of Hax to get their jobs done..this, however, limits the moveset and also the annoyers versatiliy. Take Lanturn. Surf, Thunder Wave, Confuse Ray, and Attract is the annoyer set. A Sceptile that is the same gender as the said Lanturn would beat the snot out of it. Infact, any Grass, Water, or High Sp.Def pokemon that is faster than Lanturn could stop the set. The set relies too much on hax. Moves like Taunt and Substitute stop annoyers in their tracks as well. Switching out nulls them too. You can "annoy" enough with a single annoying move. Thunder Wave, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Surf is the best Set for Lanturn. Sleep Powder, Will-o-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Confuse Ray, Hypnosis, Spore, Lovely Kiss, Sing, and Stun Spore are the better annoying moves. I'd suggest having one of those on a pokemon. That way the pokemon can survive due to hax but actually deal damage to more pokemon than if your tripled up on annoying moves.

Things One Should NEVER do in Competitive play:

Double Team or other Evasion raising move - Using this turns all skill into luck as you hope your opponent doesn't get that one lucky shot and KO your pokemon before it can do anything with the Double Teams. Haze also stops this move instantly.

Sheer Cold, Horn Drill, Fissure, Guillotine - OKHO moves are bad because they have horrible accuracy. Infact the accuracy is beyond horrible. Mind Reader + Sheer Cold on Articuno is the only way they work...but Articuno gets slaughtered by Thunderbolt, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, and Rock Slide/HP:Rock/Rock Blast.

King's Rock - If you are faster or have Inner Focus as an ability...then the item is useless. Waste of the item slot.

Quick Claw - Hmm...10% chance of going before my opponent...hmm...no thanks. Waste of an item slot.

Brightpowder/Lax Incense - hm..boosts Evasion...by one...WOW. Waste of a hold item. It is like using Double Team.

Focus Band - Wow..chance of my pokemon keeping 1 HP after an attack...hmm...Would be good for a Reversal/Flailer..but then that pokemon gets smashed as it isn't fast enough to effectively sweep. Waste of a hold item.

Ganlon/Apicot/Figi/Wiki/Mago/Aguav/Iapapa Berries - Pinch Berries that are REALLY bad. The first two boost a defensive stat that really doesn't when your HP is under 25%. The others give back 1/8th of or HP when you hit the yellow...problem is, if you don't guess the right berry for the proper nature, then you get confused. Not only that...but if they hit you hard enough to drop you into the yellow with one move..then they are going to worry about a 1/8th replenishment. Wastes of item slots.

Regarding Uber Pokemon:

These are the only pokemon considered uber: Mew, Mewtwo, Ho-oh, Lugia, Lati@s(with Soul Dew), Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Deoxys(all forms), Wobbuffet.

Pokemon that people say are uber but are not:

Celebi: It has a 4x weakness to Bug. Any Special Sponge can handle it. Lapras can give it problems too.

Jirachi: STAB'd Earthquake can give this guy problems.

Raikou: Blissey. That is all.

Suicune: Psych Up Regice. Water Absorb. Curselax. Knock Off. Ludicolo. meh.

Zapdos: Ice Beam. Rock Slide. Two common as sin attacks.

Blissey: Anything with an Attack Stat higher than 240 can OHKO it.

Tyranitar: 4x weak to Fighting, 2x to Ground. Two of THE most common attack-types on a Physical Sweeper. Megahorn loves to hit this thing too.

Articuno: Mainly because of Mind Reader+Sheer Cold. However, a STAB'd Thunderbolt/Flamethower can at least 2HKO this pokemon before it can try a OHKO. Sturdy helps too.

Slaking: Traunt. If you can't stop a pokemon that can only attack every other turn..then you need to find a new game to play.

Metagross: Earthquake. Flamethrower. Skarm can stop it too. Donphan can too. ChoiceAero can kill it too.

Ninjask: Rock Blast. Roar. Whirlwind. Haze. Need I go on?

Skarmory: Thunderbolt. Nosepass. Magneton. They counter it HARD. Fire Blast/Flamethrower anyone?

Regice: Rock Slide, Focus Punch. Physical Sweepers in General.

Salamence: Ice Beam, Ice Punch, ICY WIND. Ice Attacks SMACK this thing down. Zapdos, Jolty, and Raikou 2HKO with Thunderbolt and no stat boosts.

Curselax: Haze. Whirlwind. Roar. Leech Seed. Sub. Counters galore.

List of Over Used(OU) Pokemon
Blissey, Celebi, Gyarados, Heracross, Jirachi, Metagross, Salamence, Skarmory, Suicune, Swampert, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Donphan, Dragonite, Dusclops, Dugtrio, Gengar, Jolteon, Magneton, Medicham, Milotic, Raikou, Sceptile, Slaking, Starmie, Vaporeon, Weezing, Zapdos, Armaldo, Blaziken, Breloom, Claydol, Dodrio, Exeggutor, Flygon Gardevoir, Hariyama, Machamp, Marowak, Miltank, Ninjask, Porygon2, Regice, Regirock, Slowbro, Tauros, Umbreon, Venusaur, Forretress,

List of Border Line Pokemon
Articuno, Cloyster, Cradily, Electabuzz, Espeon, Hitmonlee, Houndoom, Jumpluff, Kangaskhan, Kingdra, Lanturn, Lapras, Ludicolo, Muk, Moltres, Mr. Mime, Poliwrath, Quagsire, Registeel, Rhydon, Smeargle(meh..it doesn't feel right to put it in OU), Steelix, Swellow, Ursaring, Zangoose, Ampharos, Azumarill, Banette, Fearow, Gligar, Golduck, Gorebyss, Grumpig, Jynx, Lunatone, Meganium, Nidoking, Omastar, Piloswine, Pinsir, Primeape, Entei, Sandslash, Solrock, Tentacruel, Typhlosion, Victreebel, Vileplume, Yanma, Aggron, Flareon, Girafarig, Granbull, Hypno, Kabutops, Octillery, Scizor, Scyther, Tangela, Xatu, Arbok, Electrode, Kingler, Manectric, Mantine, Politoed, Qwilfish, Rapidash, Raticate, Stantler, Sudowoodo, Torkoal, Whiscash

List of Underused Pokemon
Altaria, Arcanine, Charizard, Crobat, Golem, Muk, Absol, Cacturne, Camerupt, Hitmontop, Huntail, Linoone, Magmar, Nidoqueen, Shiftry, Walrein, Bellossom, Feraligatr, Hitmonchan, Kecleon, Misdreavus, Persian, Raichu, Glalie, Ninetales, Noctowl, Parasect, Pidgeot, Wigglytuff

List of Never Used Pokemon
Crawdaunt, Farfetch'd, Furret, Lickitung, Nosepass, Relicanth, Seaking, Sableye, Sharpedo, Shuckle, Sneasel, Sunflora, Tropius, Venomoth, Wailord, Aipom, Beautifly, Beedrill, Butterfree, Castform, Chimecho, Corsola, Delcatty, Delibird, Dustox, Illumise, Ledian, Magcargo, Masquerain, Mawile, Mightyena, Minun, Murkrow, Pelipper, Plusle, Roselia, Spinda, Togetic, Volbeat

Pokemon that are banned from OU battling because they are beyond bad
Shedinja, Luvdisc, Ditto, Unknown

Countering OU Pokemon

I want this to be a kind loose guide so that some original counters can be thrown in but there are some standard ones for people to fall back on. Mewnoob and Lynx are going to be helping. If you have found a counter for an OU pokemon, be it OU, UU, or NU, post it. I'd like to play test the counter before posting it just to see how well it works for myself. Lynx and Mewnoob could do the same and then we'd decide on it. Three brains are better than one.

That is all that I can think of. If you can think of anything else, feel free to post it. Praise and Flames belong in PM. You can debate all you want with me as long as you use intelligence to make valid points.

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Last edited by Nuetral777 on Sun May 28, 2006 9:54 pm, edited 10 times in total.



Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:27 pm
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I think I shall sticky this ;) Nice job

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Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:06 pm
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Are you by any chance registered at Smogon? No offence, but you seem to have their attitude to Netbattle. It's not a bad thing, but can seem sort of elitist. I did need some of this info however, so thanks for making this guide.

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Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:18 am
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I actually like Kingdra. I usually have a STABed Dragonbreath on him so he can take out a wide range of pkmn. Also Attract is quite helpful if you have it on him/her as many of the people I've batteled know. Anyway I still love your article.

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Tue Jun 14, 2005 6:56 am
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i agree, kingdra is quite effective, if you max out the spatk evs + a spatk friendly nature, with raindance and stab, its surf becomes extremely powerful, and when you combine that with raindance and swiftswim, you have an uberl33t special sweeper (with a dragon type to help defend against the thunder you mentioned above) ... of course its vulnerable to a blissey, but what pokemon in the game doesnt have a vulnerability to AT LEAST 1 pokemon???

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Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:10 am
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Lynx wrote:
i agree, kingdra is quite effective, if you max out the spatk evs + a spatk friendly nature, with raindance and stab, its surf becomes extremely powerful, and when you combine that with raindance and swiftswim, you have an uberl33t special sweeper (with a dragon type to help defend against the thunder you mentioned above) ... of course its vulnerable to a blissey, but what pokemon in the game doesnt have a vulnerability to AT LEAST 1 pokemon???


It isn't just just blissey. Pretty much all water-types laugh in Kingdra's face. Lapras especially. Lapras has huge HP, nice Sp.Def and Sp.Atk. Kingdra can't Surf it because of Water Absorb. Kingdra can beam it for a 4x Resistance to Ice. It could Dragonbreath/HP Dragon for some damage. Lapras could smack down a Kingdra with a few Ice Beams. So Bliss, Any pokemon with Air Lock/Cloud Nine, any water pokemon with some Sp.Def. That is a lot of pokemon that can stop a Kingdra.

Eswin wrote:
Are you by any chance registered at Smogon? No offence, but you seem to have their attitude to Netbattle. It's not a bad thing, but can seem sort of elitist. I did need some of this info however, so thanks for making this guide.


I don't mean to be elitist. I just don't want people who want to battle competitively to just jump into the fray without any kind of knowledge just to get flamed. Sorry if I came off as elitist.

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Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:21 am
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It didn't sound elitist to me but someone else could but anyway, your guide did bring some good points up though (double team is ghey as well). I never thought about Kingdra or Registeel from that point of view either

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Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:51 am
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Nuetral777 wrote:
It isn't just just blissey. Pretty much all water-types laugh in Kingdra's face. Lapras especially. Lapras has huge HP, nice Sp.Def and Sp.Atk. Kingdra can't Surf it because of Water Absorb. Kingdra can beam it for a 4x Resistance to Ice. It could Dragonbreath/HP Dragon for some damage. Lapras could smack down a Kingdra with a few Ice Beams. So Bliss, Any pokemon with Air Lock/Cloud Nine, any water pokemon with some Sp.Def. That is a lot of pokemon that can stop a Kingdra.


Well that's why you don't put a Kingdra in with Lapras. Same reason as why you don't have Heracross against a Flying type, or Charizard against a Rock Type or one that is known for Rock Slide/Ancient Power. It doesn't work.
Also, it isn't 'a lot of pokemon' that can stop Kingdra. As I remember, only 3 to 4 poke have Air Lock and Cloud Nine. Also Water Types that have high Sp. Def or Water Absorb are few and far between. Kindra is there to sweep everything that isn't resistant to it. As Lynx said, every pokemon in the game is at least vunerable to one. Even Sableye with it's low defences.
I wanted to point out, as well, your little piece about Quick Claw and Focus Band. Do you have any idea how many times Focus Band has actually come into play for me? It may be by chance, but when it happens it's the best thing in the world. Same with Quick Claw. Give Heracross Quick Claw, max out it's speed and give it something like Hasty (Not sure if that lowers attack or not) and Endure/Reversal will work wonders against everything. Or give Heracross Focus Band and when you're at 1 HP and it comes into play... It's so satisfying to see your opponent crumble like that. I'm not saying that you should depend upon chance dependant items, but they can help as a kind of insurance to keep you in there.

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Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:12 pm
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Siphai wrote:

Well that's why you don't put a Kingdra in with Lapras. Same reason as why you don't have Heracross against a Flying type, or Charizard against a Rock Type or one that is known for Rock Slide/Ancient Power. It doesn't work.
Also, it isn't 'a lot of pokemon' that can stop Kingdra. As I remember, only 3 to 4 poke have Air Lock and Cloud Nine. Also Water Types that have high Sp. Def or Water Absorb are few and far between. Kindra is there to sweep everything that isn't resistant to it. As Lynx said, every pokemon in the game is at least vunerable to one. Even Sableye with it's low defences.
I wanted to point out, as well, your little piece about Quick Claw and Focus Band. Do you have any idea how many times Focus Band has actually come into play for me? It may be by chance, but when it happens it's the best thing in the world. Same with Quick Claw. Give Heracross Quick Claw, max out it's speed and give it something like Hasty (Not sure if that lowers attack or not) and Endure/Reversal will work wonders against everything. Or give Heracross Focus Band and when you're at 1 HP and it comes into play... It's so satisfying to see your opponent crumble like that. I'm not saying that you should depend upon chance dependant items, but they can help as a kind of insurance to keep you in there.


You are still missing the point. By High Sp.Def, I mean anything with over base 80 Sp.Def and is a Water Type can just laugh at Kingdra. Kingdra is outclass as a sweeper, Dragon Dancer, and Flailer. Sure it is fun to use. But when it comes to competitive play, Kingdra can't do anything to any Water-type with 80+ Base Sp.Def, Cloud Nine/Air Lock pokemon, and Blissey/Regice. It isn't that YOU would put Kingdra in against these pokemon. Anyone with a brain would throw one of those pokemon in against Kingdra for Free Set Up or just to smack it down while it tries to take them on. You would then switch out...again giving them free set-up/a good whack at the new pokemon.

Quick Claw and Focus Band, If I have my facts straight, work 10% of the time. Would you be happy if your medical insurance company said it would be a 10% chance that they would cover you when you were in an accident? I'd think not. They are hardly insurance. Chance is Luck. Luck will never be skill. Salac Berry on a Heracross gives you a Speed Boost by one level...that is there until Hera gets KOed. It isn't there 10% of the time. It is there 100% until Hera gets KOed, hazed, pHazed. Focus Band will save you 10% of the time. Why not just switch out the pokemon if you know it is going to get hit hard enough to get KO'd? With 1 HP a pokemon CAN do a lot. However, if it has 1 HP left due to being saved by a Focus Band...then it has pretty much lost its chance. Focus Band is a waste of an Item Slot because Endure does its job better AND it allows for Salac/Liechi Sweeping. 10% isn't something to rely on. Nor is it something that can save you when you need it. Luck is a mean lady who has a short temper. Karma is an evil female dog. Skill is the sultry lady who ALWAYS wins in the end.

In short: Quick Claw and Focus Band work 10% of the time. 10% = bad. If you read over what you wrote..then think,"Would a Salac Berry do better in this situation?"

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Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:47 pm
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Nuetral777 wrote:
Air Lock and Cloud Nine.

id just like to point out that the only pokemon with cloud nine is already a water type - Golduck ... and the only pokemon with Air Lock is Rayquaza - *cough* icebeam *cough*

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:41 am
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A free set up? Obviously you would switch out for something that wouldn't be taken out at all by the opponent that was switched in. Just as Kingdra getting it's free attack on the turn that Blissey/Water Type with over 80 Spec. Def/Regice are switched in (Which is hardly effective), so too will they get a free attack on the switch where you bring out something that will easily absorb any hit they'll dish out. And if they set up... well, I'm sure you with your knowledge will obviously know which poke are setup ones so that you'll counter them anyway.

Also, Hera is suited to use the Salac Berry very well, the example I used is only an example. Picture this, if your mind will see to it that it can exist. You are on your last poke, Charizard and your opponent is on their last as well, a Golem. You have Earthquake on Char and use it, but it doesn't quite take out the Golem so now you can be expected to be hit in the face with Rock Slide right? You would be dead, but wait! Focus Band activates, and keeps you at one HP! Now you can finish off the Golem and you win. Now, would there be any of your special berrys that would work any better? Think about it. Chance is something that doesn't happen all to often, but when it does it will turn the tides faster than any other item will. Heracross was a bad example, because he wasn't exactly fast enough to use it to potential. Though I have used it strongly many a time, I'm sure something that would boost it's speed would be great.

What I meant to say in my previous post was, they are insurance for Poke who are fast enough to use it. If it doesn't activates, well. Would you be any better off with anything else?

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:51 am
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Exellant article, but one thing... even though most water pokes can take what kingdra throws at them what if the Kingdra happen to have HP Electric/Grass then that water poke would be completely helpless, and Kingdra reclaims it's 00ber throne.


Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:11 am
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Basically, Siphai, your state says that Luck wins battles. If I had a Golem and you won ONLY because of a Focus Band. I would declare myself the true winner as you won based strictly on a 10% happening. There is enough luck involved with moves like Confuse Ray and Thunder Wave. Why waste a perfectly decent item slot for a 10% chance of something to happen? Why put a Quick Claw on a Sceptile? It is fast enough to strike first on a lot of pokemon...but you would put a Quick Claw on it so it could have that 10% chance to outspeed an Aerodactyl? Makes no sense. Quick Claw and Focus Band occur 10% of the time. They aren't reliable. Regardless of your personal battle experience, anything that occurs 10% of the time will never be reliable.

Siphai wrote:
Picture this, if your mind will see to it that it can exist.


Comments like that aren't necessary.

Siphai wrote:
A free set up? Obviously you would switch out for something that wouldn't be taken out at all by the opponent that was switched in. Just as Kingdra getting it's free attack on the turn that Blissey/Water Type with over 80 Spec. Def/Regice are switched in (Which is hardly effective), so too will they get a free attack on the switch where you bring out something that will easily absorb any hit they'll dish out. And if they set up... well, I'm sure you with your knowledge will obviously know which poke are setup ones so that you'll counter them anyway.


Picture this:

Turn 1
Trainer A sends out Kingdra
Trainer B sends out Jolteon

Turn 2
Trainer B withdraws Jolteon
Trainer B sends out Slowbro

Kingdra used Surf
Not very effective

Turn 3
Kingdra uses Dragonbreath
Slowbro uses Calm Mind

OR

Turn 3
Trainer A withdraws Kingdra
Trainer A sends out Jolteon

Slowbro used Ice Beam

Hmm...Both situations look extremely favorable to me.

If you need more convincing. Contruct a basic team with Kingdra as your Special Sweeper. Challenge EXPERIENCED trainers. Tell me how it does. I mean of course on NetBattle/RSBot. If you can prove to me that 9 times out of 10 Kingdra can sweep as well as Raikou, Zapdos, and Alakazam, I'll stand corrected. In my battling experience, it hasn't been up to par with them Kingdra is too powerful for UU and too weak for OU. Nothing more to say. You haven't really disproved my point. There are an infinate number of possible senarios in which a Kingdra could be sent in or leading a team. Many of those end with Kingdra getting smacked down by Bliss, Cune, or Regice which are the common Sponges of today's Metagame.

Lynx wrote:

id just like to point out that the only pokemon with cloud nine is already a water type - Golduck ... and the only pokemon with Air Lock is Rayquaza - *cough* icebeam *cough*


True...but they still kill Kingdra's speed boost. And Golduck will forever own Kingdra because of Calm Mind.

ShadowFlygon wrote:
Exellant article, but one thing... even though most water pokes can take what kingdra throws at them what if the Kingdra happen to have HP Electric/Grass then that water poke would be completely helpless, and Kingdra reclaims it's 00ber throne.


Kingdra was NEVER 00ber because Blissey DESTROYED it. Quagsire lolz at HP:Electric Kingdra and Ludicolo lolz at HP:Grass Kingdra. True not all teams of Quaggy and Colo. A MAJORITY of the teams carry Blissey, Cune, or Regice. CM CUNE HAS NO WEAK, as we all know. Regice and Blissey eat Sp.Atks for lunch. I've used Kingdra. HP:Electric did the most damage to a Wailord..and it couldn't even take of 50% of its HP. I'm pretty sure Raikou, Zappy, or Alakazam could have sliced off over 50% of a Wailord's HP. Kingdra is, was, and will forever be outclassed by superior Sp.Sweepers who aren't completely slaughtered by Blissey.

Raikou can Calm Mind and Sub. Alakazam can Calm Mind. Zappy is the only one who really can't hold its own to Blissey...however its ability to smite Dugtrio makes it worthwhile. Running Zappy and Duggy on a team together isn't a bad idea.

If Kingdra could Calm Mind...it would be DANGEROUS. However it can't. There aren't many really good CMPassers. Espyjump is the only good one...until Haze or Roar smacks it away. I am nearly offended you even called Kingdra 00ber.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:19 am
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Nuetral777 wrote:
Basically, Siphai, your state says that Luck wins battles. If I had a Golem and you won ONLY because of a Focus Band. I would declare myself the true winner as you won based strictly on a 10% happening. There is enough luck involved with moves like Confuse Ray and Thunder Wave. Why waste a perfectly decent item slot for a 10% chance of something to happen? Why put a Quick Claw on a Sceptile? It is fast enough to strike first on a lot of pokemon...but you would put a Quick Claw on it so it could have that 10% chance to outspeed an Aerodactyl? Makes no sense. Quick Claw and Focus Band occur 10% of the time. They aren't reliable. Regardless of your personal battle experience, anything that occurs 10% of the time will never be reliable.

A win is a win no matter how it happens. You could still say you are the winner... but you lost. Also, I obviously wouldn't put a Quick Claw on Sceptile. Seriously, he's a speed demon. When I said I'd put chance items, I meant Focus Band. At the time I wrote that, I was thinking that same thing. I wouldn't put Quick Claw on a poke fast enough to 'utalize it'. Yet for some reason, I did not mention that I would put it on a Poke that could use that speed boost but does not rely on it. All I'm saying is that, these chance items are back ups for just in case situation. It won't be reliable, yet it's nice to have something that might work and when it does, works very well.

Siphai wrote:
A free set up? Obviously you would switch out for something that wouldn't be taken out at all by the opponent that was switched in. Just as Kingdra getting it's free attack on the turn that Blissey/Water Type with over 80 Spec. Def/Regice are switched in (Which is hardly effective), so too will they get a free attack on the switch where you bring out something that will easily absorb any hit they'll dish out. And if they set up... well, I'm sure you with your knowledge will obviously know which poke are setup ones so that you'll counter them anyway.


Picture this:

Turn 1
Trainer A sends out Kingdra
Trainer B sends out Jolteon

Turn 2
Trainer B withdraws Jolteon
Trainer B sends out Slowbro

Kingdra used Surf
Not very effective

Turn 3
Kingdra uses Dragonbreath
Slowbro uses Calm Mind

OR

Turn 3
Trainer A withdraws Kingdra
Trainer A sends out Jolteon

Slowbro used Ice Beam

Hmm...Both situations look extremely favorable to me.

Jolteons max Special Defense is 283 or so. Slowbro's max Special Attack is 294 or so, plus he doesn't receive STAB for Ice Beam. Jolteon will easily survive, and go on to use something like Thunder Bolt. You'd probably switch out to a Ground Type, or in lack of one, your almightly Blissey and it would go on and on. You cannot base Kingdra's effectiveness based on one situation.

If you need more convincing. Contruct a basic team with Kingdra as your Special Sweeper. Challenge EXPERIENCED trainers. Tell me how it does. I mean of course on NetBattle/RSBot. If you can prove to me that 9 times out of 10 Kingdra can sweep as well as Raikou, Zapdos, and Alakazam, I'll stand corrected. In my battling experience, it hasn't been up to par with them Kingdra is too powerful for UU and too weak for OU. Nothing more to say. You haven't really disproved my point. There are an infinate number of possible senarios in which a Kingdra could be sent in or leading a team. Many of those end with Kingdra getting smacked down by Bliss, Cune, or Regice which are the common Sponges of today's Metagame.

I'll get right on that, as soon as I feel like playing NetBattle again.


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Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:51 pm
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What in the world is tyraniboah?

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:54 pm
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Nuetral777 wrote:
ShadowFlygon wrote:
Exellant article, but one thing... even though most water pokes can take what kingdra throws at them what if the Kingdra happen to have HP Electric/Grass then that water poke would be completely helpless, and Kingdra reclaims it's 00ber throne.


Kingdra was NEVER 00ber because Blissey DESTROYED it. Quagsire lolz at HP:Electric Kingdra and Ludicolo lolz at HP:Grass Kingdra. True not all teams of Quaggy and Colo. A MAJORITY of the teams carry Blissey, Cune, or Regice. CM CUNE HAS NO WEAK, as we all know. Regice and Blissey eat Sp.Atks for lunch. I've used Kingdra. HP:Electric did the most damage to a Wailord..and it couldn't even take of 50% of its HP. I'm pretty sure Raikou, Zappy, or Alakazam could have sliced off over 50% of a Wailord's HP. Kingdra is, was, and will forever be outclassed by superior Sp.Sweepers who aren't completely slaughtered by Blissey.

Raikou can Calm Mind and Sub. Alakazam can Calm Mind. Zappy is the only one who really can't hold its own to Blissey...however its ability to smite Dugtrio makes it worthwhile. Running Zappy and Duggy on a team together isn't a bad idea.

If Kingdra could Calm Mind...it would be DANGEROUS. However it can't. There aren't many really good CMPassers. Espyjump is the only good one...until Haze or Roar smacks it away. I am nearly offended you even called Kingdra 00ber.
Opps, I didn't mean to offend you :P, but if you do the CMPass it would be 00ber but like you said Haze/Roar/Whirlwind Screws it up, so yeah kingdra really isn't that 00ber, he's more like a demi-00ber with the CMPass, if not he's like a magikarp out of the water, (-minus the being a pathetic fish), and what the hecks up with all the nicknames?

But however because of it's types, Kingdra could make a nice annoyer (it's got nothing on the master annoyers like Raichu, but it could work) I mean think about it...

EVs: Speed:maxed out, Sp. Defense:maxed out, and then the rest on Sp. Attack
Item: Lefties (obvious reasons)
Dragonbreath (paralyzes, thought not all the the time but it more reliable than a Quick Claw or Focus Band)
Surf (just for STAB)
Attract (obvious)
Swagger (confuse, though it may hurt if they have a kick 455 physical move like EQ)

So Kingdra does have a good job, but it may not work... I'll test it later...


Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:27 pm
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ShadowFlygon wrote:
Opps, I didn't mean to offend you :P, but if you do the CMPass it would be 00ber but like you said Haze/Roar/Whirlwind Screws it up, so yeah kingdra really isn't that 00ber, he's more like a demi-00ber with the CMPass, if not he's like a magikarp out of the water, (-minus the being a pathetic fish), and what the hecks up with all the nicknames?

But however because of it's types, Kingdra could make a nice annoyer (it's got nothing on the master annoyers like Raichu, but it could work) I mean think about it...

EVs: Speed:maxed out, Sp. Defense:maxed out, and then the rest on Sp. Attack
Item: Lefties (obvious reasons)
Dragonbreath (paralyzes, thought not all the the time but it more reliable than a Quick Claw or Focus Band)
Surf (just for STAB)
Attract (obvious)
Swagger (confuse, though it may hurt if they have a kick 455 physical move like EQ)

So Kingdra does have a good job, but it may not work... I'll test it later...


Annoyers are meh, in my opinion. I'm not to big on "Annoying" moveset. My brother absolutely dispises them. I actually got him with Parafusion, T-waved with Granbull then Confuse Ray'd with Magmar and he nearly ripped my head off as the hax kept him from a win. I don't care for annoyers but...if someone does then more power to them. Quick Claw and Focus Band just make baby jesus cry everytime they are used.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:08 pm
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Quick claw can be pretty useful on slow pokemon, when used right. Imagine, for example, a severely injured dusclops against a speedy opponent who's sure to K.O with their very first attack. The faster opponent selects his move, but woe- the dusclops' quick claw makes him attack first, with destiny bond! With d-bond in a moveset, quick claw essentially gives you a 10% chance of OHKOing an opponent, potentially a fresh one- even at the cost of leftovers I'd call that a good deal.

I'm not saying it's something you're going to use on every pokemon, but saying "never use this ever" dismisses a lot of creative options that the opponent will never see coming. Standard movesets and items are there for a reason, but they aren't called "standard" for nothing- a unique combination, even when seemingly not as powerful as the traditional set, will keep an opponent guessing and could catch them off guard.

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Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:34 pm
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Sure, Double-Team doesn't guarantee evasion; the opponent has got a chance to hit you. Haze also negates its effect, and Haze is commonly used. But that does not justify your claim that it should never be used in competitive play. It merely means that it should be avoided. Sometimes a Pokemon really has a limited movepool, or else it is really weak and can't take more than a hit or two. In these cases, I find it alright to use moves such as Attract or Double-Team on the Pokemon. The word "never" is rather extreme; maybe the heading can be edited.

Other than that, nicely done article. Well done :D

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Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:52 am
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Here we go. Double Team turns all of your skill into luck as you have to hope the opponent doesn't have Haze, CB Aerial Ace, or Roar/Whirlwind. You also have to hope the opponent does get that one shot in that ruins your entire double teaming. Double Team = No Skill. Skill wins in Competitive Play. Not Luck.

Quick Claw works 10% of the time. It CANNOT be counted on. Neither can Focus Band. If it was like a 50% chance, they would be useful...but it is a 10% chance. Waste of a hold item.

Siphai, you seriously aren't getting my point. You keep saying that Quick Claw and Focus Band are great in their 10% effectiveness. Competitive Play has no place for a 10% chance. That is why Quick Claw and Focus Band have been left to rot in the item box.

It was just an example. It didn't need to go further in terms of who would have done what. I just wanted you to see that A. Kingdra was lost in that situation and B.Slowbro had a win-win situation there. Blissey isn't almighty either. It is just effective.

It all boils down to effectiveness. Kingdra has lost its effectiveness. It is outclassed all around and It can't do much. It is a pokemon that looks good on paper but won't cut it in today's metagame. That one situation is one of the more common situations. I'm sorry that you are so attatched to Kingdra.

This guide was made by myself and my brother from our research. This isn't a matter of opinion here. These are facts.

Tyraniboah@Leftovers
Quiet: 252 Hp, 68 Spd/Atk, 190 Sp.Atk
Sub
Focus Punch
Thunderbolt
Crunch


That is boah.

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Last edited by Nuetral777 on Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:17 am
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Good guide, but whats this boah thing??

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Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:51 am
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I posted what Boah is in my last post. Boah is pretty good, if used right.

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Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:20 am
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You don't need to rely on something in order to use it, Nuetral- I sure as heck don't rely on my opponents being paralyzed by Body Slam, but others and I still use it over return/frustration because paralysis can be a pleasant added bonus to it in a tight situation. I'm sorry, but this guide IS an opinion, not almighty law. You need skill to judge when a chance is worth taking, so using something like a Quick Claw (or double team, or a focus band, or any other "luck" item) isn't falling back on luck, it's falling back on the law of probability, backed up by a good moveset that can both function on its own AND benefit from the item or attack that you may or may not get a chance to use.

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Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:48 am
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Gryphflame wrote:
You don't need to rely on something in order to use it, Nuetral- I sure as heck don't rely on my opponents being paralyzed by Body Slam, but others and I still use it over return/frustration because paralysis can be a pleasant added bonus to it in a tight situation. I'm sorry, but this guide IS an opinion, not almighty law. You need skill to judge when a chance is worth taking, so using something like a Quick Claw (or double team, or a focus band, or any other "luck" item) isn't falling back on luck, it's falling back on the law of probability, backed up by a good moveset that can both function on its own AND benefit from the item or attack that you may or may not get a chance to use.


This guide isn't opinion because my brother and I actually like Kingdra, Charizard, and Registeel. Infact, My brother's Most powerful team has Kingdra still in it. He has changed his Kingdra as much as it could(this isn't a lot) to fit the metagame but he still uses it regardless. Sadly, his most powerful team has now been simply stuck to fight in strickly 200(Ru/Sa Only) play were Blissey isn't legal.

BTW, This is a guide. A FACTUAL guide for those headed for competitive play. If you don't like competitive play, then stick with battling your friends or just stay ingame. No where did I say this is law and in no way does it hinder anyones creativity. I have made a tremendous number of fun, yet competitive, teams that actually worked in the metagame.

Had this been a Guide of Opinion, I would say that the only Pinch Berry worth using is Liechi on a Ninjask or that Everyteam should have a Spinner, a Cleric, and a (p)Hazer. There would have been a LOT of things in this guide that many of you would have disagreed with MORE than just trying to convince me that a luck based item that works 10% of the time is better than/as good as an Item that gives back HP EVERY turn. Or that a 10% Luck Based item is better than/as good as an Item that boosts atk for the WHOLE battle. If you had to make a usefulness List. Choice Band, Leftovers, Salac Berry, and Liechi Berry would be at the top. Quick Claw and Focus Band are about as helpful as Light Ball on Zigzagoon. There really isn't any case that anyone has stated that has shown me their worth. One case is that they can win you a battle based on a pure 10% chance which isn't winning as you had already lost. So you won with luck not with skill. Wow. I call a rematch and you lose just as fast because the luck was then gone. If you have a good moveset, then Double Team isn't needed.

BTW, Body Slam IS used for the 30% Paralysis. Its STAB'd BP is really nice and it has 30% chance of para. This is why Curselax Loves him some Body Slam.

If you don't believe me, take your in-game team to NetBattle/RSBot and see how well you do against the Experienced players. As of right now, no one has made a decent defense for the use of Kingdra, Quick Claw, Double Team, and Focus Band. If no one can then you'll just have to deal with it. Use them if you want IN game. Competitive Play leaves no room for luck-based wins.

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Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:08 pm
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I'm not saying you don't have a valid point that luck items are frequently useless, but the term "NEVER use in competitive play" is a bit harsh, and not necessary. I do most of my playing on netbattle, and I have faced opponents who have effectively used quick claws and double teams to their advantage without relying on it completely- my ninjask was taken out by a slow tank with a quick claw once, for example, who then proceeded to take out one of my other pokemon without any real need for leftovers. I'm not saying everyone should go out and equip their speed demons with quick claws and their snorlaxes with focus bands, but ruling them out completely in a guide to competitive gaming is just spoiling a lot of potentially surprising and competitive options.

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Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:57 pm
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