If you think Garchomp will overcentralize metagame, should be Uer, or wanna be experimental, try Shoddy battle's Smogon server's Suspect test ladder. That's a ladder that will test certain clauses, which have been voted on. The first month is for Garchomp ban. See yourself. There's been alot of fun, even when I never didn't have problem's with Garchomp. (Well, once ScarfChomp came in and my only remaining pokemon were Magnezone and Electivire)

Uh, no it isn't. Tyranitar is the #11 most-used Pokemon on shoddybattle, so I have no idea why you haven't seen one. And this means that every team that uses Tyranitar is a Sandstorm team now? Based on how popular he is, I would say not. I also overestimated Hippowdon's usage, but he still shows up enough on shoddybattle to make the cut-off for OU by Smogon's standards, so that means he's common enough.


STAB moves don't always do less than super-effective attacks. Garchomp's Outrage has 180 BP and its Earthquake has 150 BP. That means any unstabbed move that is 95 BP or lower is obsolete unless it covers Pokemon that resist Dragon and Ground such as Skarmory and Bronzong.

Skarmory is not a Garchomp counter. A Garchomp with 0 SA EVs and a nature that doesn't affect Special Attack two-hit KOs a Skarmory with no Special Defense EVs (which is the standard) via Fire Blast. That means if Skarmory eats a Fire Blast on the switch-in, it'll be screwed because it's slower than Garchomp. That requires prediction on the Garchomp user's behalf, but Fire Blast still kills Skarmory's potential as a Garchomp counter because he can't safely switch in. Even if Skarmory does get in safely and Garchomp doesn't have Fire Blast/Fang, Skarmory has no offense against Garchomp other than phazing it out. Bronzong is reasonably safe bet against Garchomp, but if everybody has to start using one Pokemon to counter another, that's overcentralization.

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If you have a Garchomp and the opponent has Sandstorm set up for his or her Garchomp, Don't you think it's pretty much equal?

Yeah, great. The battle becomes a crapshoot to see who can hit through Sand Veil. In other words, the reason why Double Team is banned because it tilts the battle in favor of luck rather than skill.

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And, you still haven't been able to counter my argument about why a Pokemon should be banned just because of something that happens least of the time.

For the third time, the problem with Garchomp is a combination of his ability, his stats and his movepool.

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You have also done nothing to dent arguments about having to banning the rest of the pseudo-legendaries just because you wanna ban Garchomp. You have done nothing to counter the argument that Garchomp is no stronger than the rest of the pseudo-legendaries.

And, yet again, I've outlined at least two other times why Garchomp is up for debate and Dragonite, Tyranitar, Salamence and Metagross are not. One is usage. Garchomp's usage far eclipses everything else in its tier, which is almost always a sign of overcentralization. Dragonite is slow, requires at least one turn to set up before he can do much of anything, and is barely even making the cut-off for OU right now. The other three are all hovering around the top ten in usage but Tyranitar is also very slow and has tons of weaknesses, and, unlike Garchomp, there are solid counters for Metagross and Salamence that go beyond using Bronzong on every team.

Yeah, like what Frost said, Dragon Claw (or some other dragon attack)/Earthquake/Fire Fang hits pretty much everything for at least neutral damage, AND he gets STAB on two of them. Ground has great type coverage and dragon hits for neutral on almost everything. Fire is there for the occasional bumps in the road such as Scizor and Forretress.


Well sure, any Ice Beamers who can withstand Garchomp's assault can KO it, but most of the time the counter is going to be wrecked so badly that its walling ability is pretty much gone. If Garchomp has Yache Berry, or even Focus Sash, then that's even more trouble.

In most of my battles against a Garchomp, around one or two of my Pokemon get banged up to the point of uselessness (especially if they have Yache Berry or FS).


Hardly any fast Pokemon can switch in. Maybe revenge kill, but that's still not a counter. You'd have to predict EQ or switch in when they SD, but it's only truly effective when you know what set they're running. Afterall, it could be a Scarfchomp. As for outspeeding it with Dragon Dance, how do you expect to do that when you have no time? Salamence and Dragonite surely will die, unless you have Focus Sash and dodge an EQ. Not horribly difficult, but not only is FS not common on them, it's a bit specific just to counter a pokemon, don't you think? *remembers Stealth Rock* Tyranitar won't have time either. He switches in when Garchomp sets up. Then he'd have to either set up or attack, assuming he survives a SE Earthquake. Oh, and Sand Stream helped activate Garchomp's Sand Veil. I have nothing on Gyarados other than....Gyarados isn't THAT bulky. Intimidate helps soften the blow, but not by much since it has SD.


How would you switch it in and survive? I don't think Gyara can take many onslaughts from Garchomp (correct me if I'm wrong). I suppose Weavile is possible if it has FS and the Garchomp player is afraid of Ice Punch/Shard.


The ease of set up and the doubling of power thanks to SD. Let's face it Garchomp sets up just as easily as the other guys. Besides, Garchomp's base attack isn't THAT much lower. It's only 4-5 points below the other guys. It'd matter more if it was speed though (base 102 makes a difference). What they have over him is speed (after DD). I'm not saying one is better than the other, just neither one can "counter" each other. It all depends on what set you're running (Scarfchomp, I'm looking at you), and who sets up first.

Just pointing out the flaws of the argument. Do I think it should be banned? Well, I don't know...

*runs some damage calculations*



All Gyarados have a spread of Neutral Nature, 216 HP, 176 Def. EVs [from smogon's BulkyGyara set], and 31 IVs. The Garchomp has 252 Attack EVs and 31 IVs, and Swords Danced on the turn Gyarados switched in. Stone Edge is not put with any of the Swords Dancing sets because they are genreally not run together. I didnt bother running calculations on Weavile because I'm too lazy it dies in one shot if it gets hit no matter what, barring a Focus sash, which is useless anyway if Stealth Rock/Spikes/Sandstorm/etc is on the field, which happens a fair amount : .

Anyway, what I'm showing is that Gyarados is awesome and whatnot when it gets a DD in on Garchomp. The problem is that Gyara has some trouble actually getting the Dragon Dance in, espcially when Stealth Rock is in play (Losing a full quarter of his health is not something Gyarados like doing, not to mention that Gyarados dies to a garchomp EVERY time with it out, short of some hax going into effect). To break it down;

1. If you didnt come in on Stealth Rock, you are in luck. Garchomp did less than half health if you aren't using some ridiculously low HP thing, so you should be able to DD next turn, live through the hit, and kill with Ice Fang. If SR is around, then you are at about a quarter health and r b ded
2. If you didnt come in on Stealth Rock, you are in luck. Garchomp did less than half health if you aren't using some ridiculously low HP thing, so you should be able to DD next turn, live through the hit, and kill with Ice Fang. If SR is around, then you are at about a quarter health and r b ded
3. If you didnt come in on Stealth Rock, you are in luck. Garchomp did less than half health (unless it got that one-in-255 chance of max damage or whatever) if you aren't using some ridiculously low HP thing, so you should be able to DD next turn, live through the hit (unless it gets the max damage again, in which case you lose), and kill with Ice Fang. If SR is around, then you are at about a quarter health and r b ded
4. This is where it gets a bit iffy. If you are lucky, it will get less than half twice in a row, but the average for this one is actually over half your health. Just hope to be lucky.
5. The issue with Scarfchomp is that after a DD, Gyarados still doesn't outspeed Chomp, meaning it gets 3 hits on you minimum (one as you switch, one before you DD, and one before you attack). However, your sucess depends solely on if you switched to SR: if not, garchomp never kill you; if yes, it always kills you.
6. The issue with Scarfchomp is that after a DD, Gyarados still doesn't outspeed Chomp, meaning it gets 3 hits on you minimum (one as you switch, one before you DD, and one before you attack). However, your sucess depends soleyl on if you switched to SR: if not, garchomp never kill you; if yes, it always kills you.
7. This one actually has the ability to kill you on its own, but its not very likely. As usual, Stealth Rock = ded
8. This one will kill you more often than not, so yeah.
9. Of all the stuff that can kill you easily, this may be the one you stand the best chance against - even if you came in on Stealth Rock, you will usually not die to its attack on the turn you Dragon Dance, and you can Ice Fang in peace.
10. Similar to the last one, but coming in on SR is more dangerous. Yaddah yaddah
11. This is where Gyarados always loses. If Chomp Outrages on the turn you DD, and then you use Ice fang, Yache (which Garchomp has 99% of the time when it hasnt got Life Orb) will allow it to survive and kill you with another Outrage. And note that this is the most common Garchop set in the game iirc.
12. See above.

So to summarize, Gyarados dies if it faces stealth rock or a yache user. Those two things are insanely common in this metagame. Not a counter, tyvm.
I know I got lazy the last bit, christ :

Even these days, I still e more afraid of Mence. Whereas Garchomp has few physical versions and ChainChomp, Salamence has MixMEnce, SpecsMence, BandMence, DDMence, Bulky Mence and more. So after all, Garchomp is easier to fight against; You now what it can carry, but you really can't counter all sets of Mence. So, if Mence and Chomp would be the dragons, Mence user would still hav the sility of unknown set, because after Intimidate Chomp oculdn't Dragon Claw it, While Mence threatened KO with Draco Meteor - Or Something else.

Since when are Starmie, Tentacruel, Forretress and Donphan weaker than other pokemon? My Starmie on Shoddy usually kills 1-2 pokemon before it goes down, and you call that weaker than most OU?

Hmmm, compared with Weavile, Garchomp, Dragonite, Salamence, Electrivire, Gyarados, Azelf, Heatran, Infernape, Lucario, Gengar, Masmowine, Togekiss, Porygon-Z......etc. Starmie isn't really that powerful. The rest of the 3 pale even more in comparison. 1HKOs on Starmies are quite common as it has little HP, eventhough its defenses are good. Most Starmies faint after taking out just 1 Pokemon. Pokemon like Weavile usually do more. Forretress doesn't really take out Pokemon very well, Tentacruel isn't really a strong sweeper cos it doesn't have the power nor the sufficient speed to make up for it and Donphan has a pathetic Sp. Def along with Snail Speed. Not weak, just not as good.

Sappirath, why do you keep arguing the same points over and over again that people have already addressed?

Also, take another look at Smogon again. There is such a significant amount of changes that people have discussed that just proves how badly Chomp overcentralizes the metagame.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44508

^Look at all the major changes that people notice. There's just no way you can argue that Chomp doesnt overcentralize and dull down the metagame.

the thirteenth most used pokemon on smogon's SB server in the month of july begs to differ
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Starmie is used more than a full half of that list you made up. Hell, it has TWICE as much usage as electivire, dragonite, AND porygon-z. If it "isn't really that powerful", explain the usage by so many people.

Try a bit of reasearch before you make stupid claims that can be shown wrong with a simple google search.

Edit:
[12:17:07] <@NinjaBlack> `calc 27098 * .6
[12:17:08] <@GameServ> NinjaBlack: 27098 * .6 = 16258.8
[12:17:32] <@NinjaBlack> it should also be pointed out that Rapid Spin Starmie is used more than ANY Mamoswine, Togekiss, Electivire, Dragonite or Porygon-Z ;o

It's the mach pokemon so Speed boost!

but seriously. Apparantly it never allows it's prey to escape, o how about arena trap?

I don't care one way or another if Garchomp gets banned. I'm just playing the devil's advocate.

Jesus christ people. This is a video game. Can you at least try to act like mature people instead of 5 year olds fighting? I love a debate as much as the next guy, but the flaming is unnessecery.

Exactly my point. A children's game by the way.

I was talking to you as well.



However, they don't have the power to fully utilise them. Garchomp on the other hand, has monstrous attack/speed, two great stab types, only two weaknesses, both of which it can take out almost effortlessly with draco meteor/fire attacks, swords dance, earthquake, SANDSTORM, etc. etc.

Gliscor is only one you listed that has sand veil as it's best ability

I knew that. No need to point it out.

I think what a lot of people are trying to say in the "for" side of banning Garchomp, is that Garchomp's stats are fine by themselves, Garchomp's moveset is fine by itself, Garchomp's STAB moves are fine by themselves, and Garchomp's ability is fine by itself, but it's the combination of all of them that makes it deadly.

Welcome to Battle Tower.

Apparently it's okay since I havent been banned yet. Either that or Psypokes has the worst moderators ever.

Members squabbling and being little idiots has become commonplace here. You haven't done anything radical enough to be banned. You basically told someone to STFU, which is more than OK on my part in this declining thread. :0


I'm going to go cry in a corner now. :(

You know why I'm posting the same points? You guys provided pathetic reasons why Garchomp should be banned. I don't support unjust banning reasons like you guys do ok? You CANNOT deny the fact that Garchomp is equal to the pseudo-legendaries, I've explained a handful of times why and it's the TRUTH. Nor can you deny the fact that you guys are simply using Sandveil as a pathetic excuse to ban Garchomp when it SHOULD NOT even be taken into consideration. Since I've countered the very basis of your argument, you shouldn't have any more reasons to ban Garchomp.

I've succesfully countered points about Garchomp being inbalanced and have also explained that Sandveil should not be taken into consideration for banning Garchomp. You guys just refuse to accept it, even when it's perfectly logical and truthful.

Major changes? What? 1 Weavile in the team? A Bronzong? Should that be why Garchomp should be banned? I have Bronzongs in my team, but I don't use them to counter Garchomps. Weaviles are used not only because they can Revenge Kill Garchomps, they kill Azelfs, Gengars, Dragonites & Salamences and many more too.



Yawn....how does that proof that Starmie isn't weaker than the Pokemon I mentioned? Please, one who does research on irrelevant topics has no rights to tell a person to do research for the right topic. Usage does not necessary reflect strength, pity you didn't figure that out. Starmie's usage has gotten up because of the ever-common Spikes and Stealth Rocks, quite foolish if you ask me....you spin off the Stealth Rocks. So what? I'll just set them up again. Starmie isn't used because it has tremendous power. It's used because of Rapid Spin. Meaning it IS weaker than the Pokemon I've mentioned.

Wow. From now i on ill just say that "YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE NOT VALID" over and over again the next time I'm in a debate because it's what you're doing and it clearly gives you that winning feeling.