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 Generation IV Tier List - last update February 17th, 2011 
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Dragon Tamer
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Rampardos is definitely not OU. Its only hopes are BP some Speed of Defenses behind a Sub, or Rock Polish with Sash. BPing the Speed isn't as good with SR killing Jask, and hardly anything can BP defense very well, as far as I know. I'm not sure of it being UU, as the Sash strategy can work pretty well at times, if your opponent isn't prepared.

I don't see a lot of BLness in Wynaut, as most things in BL will still run over it.

I also think Tentacruel will get run over a lot in BL, with the use of EQ as a common sweeping attack and that base 65 Defense, and should be a UU. (Though I'm probably wrong)

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Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:09 am
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ship_in_a_bottle wrote:


Aerodactyl
Alakazam BL
Ambipom
Azelf
Blissey
Breloom
Bronzong
Celebi
Cresselia
Donphan
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Dusknoir
Electivire
Gallade BL
Garchomp
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados
Heatran
Heracross
Hippowdon
Houndoom BL
Infernape
Jirachi
Jolteon BL
Lucario
Machamp
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Medicham BL
Mesprit
Metagross
Milotic BL
Porygon-Z
Raikou BL
Rampardos BL
Rhyperior
Salamence
Shaymin
Skarmory
Slaking
Slowbro
Snorlax BL
Spiritomb
Staraptor
Starmie
Suicune
Swampert
Tangrowth
Togekiss
Torterra
Tyranitar
Weavile
Weezing
Yanmega
Zapdos BL

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Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:20 am
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ship_in_a_bottle wrote:

UBER
Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys (All forms)
Dialga
Giratina
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Latias (regardless of Soul Dew)
Latios (Same as Latias)
Lugia
Manaphy
Mew
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Wobbuffett

OU (Overused)
Aerodactyl
Alakazam
Ambipom
Azelf
Blissey
Breloom
Bronzong
Celebi
Cresselia
Donphan
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Dusknoir
Electivire
Gallade
Garchomp
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados
Heatran
Heracross
Hippowdon
Houndoom <- BL
Infernape
Jirachi
Jolteon
Lucario
Machamp
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Medicham
Mesprit <- BL
Metagross
Milotic
Porygon-Z
Raikou
Rampardos <- BL
Rhyperior
Salamence
Shaymin
Skarmory
Slaking <- BL
Slowbro
Snorlax
Spiritomb <- BL
Staraptor <- BL
Starmie
Suicune
Swampert
Tangrowth
Togekiss
Torterra
Tyranitar
Weavile
Weezing
Yanmega
Zapdos

BL (Borderline)
Absol
Arcanine
Armaldo
Articuno
Blaziken
Chansey
Charizard
Claydol
Cloyster
Cradily
Crobat
Dodrio <- UU
Drapion
Dusclops
Empoleon
Entei
Espeon
Exeggutor
Feraligatr
Floatzel
Flygon
Forretress <- OU
Frosslass
Gardevoir
Glaceon
Hariyama
Haunter <- UU
Honchkrow
Jumpluff
Jynx
Kadabra <- UU
Kangaskhan
Kingdra
Lapras
Leafeon
Lickilicky
Linoone
Ludicolo
Luxray <- UU
Magmortar
Magneton <- UU
Marowak (with Thick Club)
Miltank
Mismagius
Moltres
Nidoking
Ninetales
Ninjask
Pikachu (with Light Ball) <- UU
Pinsir
Poliwrath
Porygon2
Probopass <- UU
Raichu <- UU
Regice <- OU
Regigigas <- UU
Regirock
Registeel
Relicanth
Rhydon
Roserade
Sceptile
Scizor
Sharpedo <- UU
Slowking
Steelix
Swellow
Tauros
Tentacruel <- OU
Toxicroak
Typhlosion
Umbreon
Ursaring
Uxie
Vaporeon
Venusaur
Wynaut <- UBER
Zangoose

UU (Underused)
Abomasnow <- BL
Aggron
Altaria
Ampharos
Azumarill <- BL
Banette
Bastiodon
Bellossom <- NU
Bibarel <- NU
Blastoise
Cacturne
Camerupt
Carnivine
Cherrim <- NU
Clefable <- BL
Crawdaunt
Drifblim
Dunsparce
Electrode
Exploud
Fearow
Flareon
Gastrodon
Glalie <- NU
Golduck <- BL
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Huntail
Hypno
Kabutops
Kingler
Lanturn
Lopunny
Lunatone
Manectric
Mantine
Meganium
Mightyena
Mr. Mime
Muk
Nidoqueen
Noctowl
Octillery
Omastar
Persian
Phione
Politoed
Primeape
Purugly
Quagsire
Rapidash
Rotom
Sableye <- NU
Sandslash
Seviper
Shedinja <- NU
Shiftry
Shuckle <- BL
Skuntank
Solrock
Sudowoodo
Torkoal
Venomoth
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Vileplume
Wailord
Walrein
Whiscash
Wormadam [Ground] <- NU
Xatu

NU (Neverused)
Arbok
Ariados
Beautifly
Beedrill
Butterfree <- UU
Castform
Chatot
Chimecho
Corsola
Delcatty
Delibird
Dewgong <- UU
Ditto
Dustox
Farfetch’d
Furrett
Girafarig
Illumise
Kecleon
Kricketune
Ledian
Lumineon
Luvdisc
Magcargo
Masquerian
Mawile
Minun
Mothim
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pelipper
Pidgeot
Plusle
Qwilfish
Raticate
Seadra <- UU
Seaking
Spinda
Stantler
Sunflora
Swalot
Tropius
Unown
Volbeat
Wigglytuff <- UU
Wormadam [Grass]
Wormadam [Steel]


I find it funny how this got stickied, a shame. Too many mistakes.

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Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:26 am
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Chatot needs to be moved to UU, as do Qwilfish, Raticate, and Sunflora.

You can't name a few good counters for any of them.


Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:03 pm
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ship_in_a_bottle wrote:

Absol
Arcanine
Armaldo
Articuno
Blaziken
Chansey
Charizard
Claydol
Cloyster
Cradily
Crobat UU
Dodrio UU

Drapion
Dusclops
Empoleon
Entei
Espeon
Exeggutor
Feraligatr
Floatzel
Flygon
Forretress OUFrosslass
Gardevoir
Glaceon
Hariyama
Haunter
Honchkrow
Jumpluff UU
Jynx UU
Kadabra
Kangaskhan
Kingdra
Lapras
Leafeon
Lickilicky
Linoone
Ludicolo
Luxray UU
Magmortar
Magneton
Marowak (with Thick Club)
Miltank
Mismagius
Moltres
Nidoking
Ninetales
Ninjask
Pikachu (with Light Ball)
Pinsir
Poliwrath
Porygon2
Probopass
Raichu
Regice
Regigigas
Regirock
Registeel
Relicanth UU
Rhydon
Roserade
Sceptile
Scizor
Sharpedo UU
Slowking UU
Steelix
Swellow
Tauros
Tentacruel
Toxicroak
Typhlosion UU
Umbreon
Ursaring
Uxie
Vaporeon
Venusaur
Wynaut
Zangoose

UU (Underused)

Underused is for Pokemon with sub-par base stats, abilities, movepool and so on. These Pokemon have their own metagame.


Abomasnow BL
Aggron
Altaria
Ampharos
Azumarill
Banette
Bastiodon
Bellossom
Bibarel
Blastoise
Cacturne
Camerupt
Carnivine
Cherrim
Clefable
Crawdaunt
Drifblim
Dunsparce
Electrode
Exploud
Fearow
Flareon
Gastrodon
Glalie
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Huntail
Hypno
Kabutops
Kingler
Lanturn
Lopunny
Lunatone
Manectric
Mantine
Meganium
Mightyena
Mr. Mime
Muk
Nidoqueen
Noctowl
Octillery
Omastar
Persian
Phione
Politoed
Primeape
Purugly
Quagsire
Rapidash
Rotom
Sableye
Sandslash
Seviper
Shedinja
Shiftry
Shuckle
Skuntank
Solrock
Sudowoodo
Torkoal
Venomoth
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Vileplume
Wailord
Walrein
Whiscash
Wormadam [Ground]
Xatu


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Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:30 am
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@RoT Slowking is definitely not UU, it's almost as good as Slowbro which is for sure OU. Almost the same stats (I think the defenses are switched) and basically the same movepool. What's bad about that?

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Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:29 pm
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This is a tier list I wrote up this morning. It probably has some mistakes here or there, so I'm posting it here for discussion and further revisions before I replace the tier list in the original post. I starred the Pokemon whose tier placement I feel particularly shaky on. Feel free to leave some advice but do explain your corrections in a polite manner.

Uber: Mewtwo, Mew, Wobbuffet, Lugia, Ho-oh, Latias, Latios, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Deoxys, Deoyxs (Attack), Deoxys (Defense), Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Manaphy, Darkrai, Arceus

OU: Dugtrio, Tentacruel*, Slowbro, Gengar, Weezing, Starmie, Gyarados, Vaporeon, Aerodactyl, Snorlax, Zapdos, Dragonite, Forretress, Heracross, Skarmory, Donphan, Blissey, Suicune, Tyranitar, Celebi, Swampert, Breloom, Salamence, Metagross, Jirachi, Deoxys (Speed), Infernape, Bronzong, Garchomp, Lucario, Hippowdon, Weavile, Magnezone, Rhyperior, Tangrowth, Electivire, Togekiss, Yanmega, Gliscor, Mamoswine*, Porygon-Z, Dusknoir, Azelf, Heatran, Cresselia

BL: Venusaur, Charizard, Clefable*, Ninetales, Arcanine, Alakazam, Machamp, Cloyster*, Exeggutor, Marowak, Rhydon, Chansey, Tauros, Lapras, Jolteon, Articuno, Moltres, Feraligatr, Crobat, Azumarill, Espeon, Umbreon, Gligar, Steelix, Scizor, Ursaring*, Houndoom, Kingdra, Porygon2, Smeargle, Miltank, Raikou, Entei, Sceptile, Blaziken, Ludicolo, Gardevoir, Slaking, Ninjask, Shedinja, Medicham, Flygon, Zangoose, Claydol, Milotic, Dusclops, Absol, Wynaut, Regirock, Registeel, Regice, Torterra, Empoleon, Staraptor, Roserade, Rampardos, Floatzel, Ambipom, Mismagius, Honchkrow, Spiritomb, Drapion, Abomasnow, Lickilicky, Magmortar, Gallade, Froslass, Uxie, Mesprit, Regigigas, Shaymin

UU: Blastoise, Butterfree, Raticate, Arbok, Pikachu, Raichu, Sandslash, Nidoqueen, Nidoking, Vileplume, Venomoth, Persian, Golduck, Primeape, Poliwrath, Victreebel, Golem, Rapidash, Magneton**, Dodrio, Dewgong***, Muk, Hypno, Kingler, Electrode, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Kangaskhan, Mr. Mime, Scyther, Jynx, Pinsir, Flareon, Omastar, Kabutops, Meganium, Lanturn, Xatu, Ampharos, Bellossom, Sudowoodo, Politoed, Jumpluff, Sunflora, Quagsire, Slowking, Dunsparce, Granbull, Qwilfish, Octillery, Mantine, Stantler, Hitmontop, Linoone, Shiftry, Swellow, Exploud, Hariyama, Aggron, Manectric, Sharpedo, Wailord, Camerupt, Torkoal, Grumpig, Crawdaunt*, Cacturne, Altaria, Seviper, Lunatone, Solrock, Cradily, Armaldo, Banette, Walrein, Clamperl, Gorebyss, Relicanth, Luxray, Bastiodon, Vespiquen, Gastrodon, Drifblim, Lopunny, Skuntank, Chatot, Toxicroak, Carnivine, Leafeon, Glaceon, Probopass, Rotom

NU: Beedrill, Pidgeot, Fearow, Wigglytuff, Parasect, Farfetch'd, Seaking, Ditto, Furret, Noctowl, Ledian, Ariados, Unown, Girafarig, Shuckle, Magcargo, Corsola, Delibird, Mightyena, Beautifly, Dustox, Pelipper, Masquerain, Delcatty, Sableye, Plusle, Minun, Volbeat, Illumise, Swalot, Spinda, Whiscash, Castform, Kecleon, Tropius, Chimecho, Glalie, Huntail, Luvdisc, Bibarel, Kricketune, Wormadam, Wormadam (Ground), Wormadam (Steel), Mothim, Pachirisu, Cherrim, Purugly, Lumineon, Phione***

** - I see no reason why Magneton should be Borderline because it was OU in Advanced. It was mainly used to murder Skarmory in the third generation metagame. Skarmory isn't in UU, so what makes DP Magneton any different from GS Magneton, who was also UU?

*** - Honestly, I feel Dewgong is superior to Phione in almost every way. All Phione has is a singular typing (but on the other hand, only one STAB as well) and slightly better Special Attack. The only reason to use either is Hydration and Dewgong has better defensive stats to pull it off.


So, there you go. Let me know what you think and what I should change. I tried to look at Smogon's tiers, Shoddy usage statistics and comments in this thread before making this list.


Last edited by Frost on Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:36 am, edited 4 times in total.



Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:33 pm
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Chatot, Sudowoodo, and Sunflora need to be moved up.

Chatot: Gets 91 base Spd, 92 base SAttk, Sing, Encore, STAB Chatter, Nasty Plot, and HP Fighting. Fight/Fly is unresisted in the NU tier and there are no solid counters.

Sunflora: 105 base SAttk with Solar Power is amazing. It gets Leaf Storm, Solarbeam, and Sludge Bomb, in addition to HP Fire. That's all it needs. I have determiened through at least thirty minutes of solid typing (it made my fingers hurt >.<) that when it holds Occa Berry, which is Fire resist, it has no counters. Get something to set up Trick Room and Sunny Day (Kecleon comes to mind, sturdy enough to not need Focus Sash so it can use Heat Rock) and it pwns.

Sudowoodo: Base 100 Attk, base 115 Def, and an amazing physical movepool. Wood Hammer with no recoil, Explosion, STAB Stone Edge, Earthquake, Hammer Arm, Focus Punch, Sucker Punch, etc. Works great with a CB and especially on a Trick Room team and I can't see anything that counters it.


Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:59 pm
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Aggron may be moved down to UU, as x4 fighting and ground weaknesses are really HARD to counter even with 180 base defense. Primeape, Golem, Hitmontop, Quagsire and Probopass all wall can switch in a STAB Rock attack and score a potential OHKO with STAB EQ/Cross Chop.

Shedinja needs to be moved down to NU. Toxic, Burn, Fire, Dark, Flying, Ghost, Rock, Leech Seed, Struggle... You name it, it kills it. Even with SashEndure, it's fairly easy to kill in even NU.

Wynaut should be moved up to Ubers, as even it has too low HP to take advantage of its attacks. You can slap a Sash on it and its automatically 6-5. They try to be smart with you and stat up? Encore and set up Boah while they are busy Swords Dancing with +8 attack.

That's all I guess.

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Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:16 am
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Gnaaye wrote:
Aggron may be moved down to UU, as x4 fighting and ground weaknesses are really HARD to counter even with 180 base defense. Primeape, Golem, Hitmontop, Quagsire and Probopass all wall can switch in a STAB Rock attack and score a potential OHKO with STAB EQ/Cross Chop.

Shedinja needs to be moved down to NU. Toxic, Burn, Fire, Dark, Flying, Ghost, Rock, Leech Seed, Struggle... You name it, it kills it. Even with SashEndure, it's fairly easy to kill in even NU.

Wynaut should be moved up to Ubers, as even it has too low HP to take advantage of its attacks. You can slap a Sash on it and its automatically 6-5. They try to be smart with you and stat up? Encore and set up Boah while they are busy Swords Dancing with +8 attack.

That's all I guess.


1. Aggron is UU.
2. Shedinja rules NU. Too much.
3. Wynaut belongs in BL at the very most. Also Boah isn't set up. :/


Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:58 am
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Boah is SUBSTITUTE/Focus Punch/Ice Beam/Crunch.

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Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:53 am
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Just a couple of things.

1. I don't see Rhyperior or Slowking on the lists at all.

2. Why is Shedinja in BL? Theres just too many things that kill it, it NEEDS to be put in UU, if not NU

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Last edited by EvilPenguin on Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:22 am
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Sheddy kicks the **** out of NU. UU for it.


Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:55 pm
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EP - Shedinja is UU - stealth rock, spikes, burn, toxic all kill it. Faster flying/ghost/dark/fire/rock/poison moves that hit kill it. Unfortunately, in NU, nothing really carries that, so it is kicked up to UU.

I'd like to know why Alakazam and Snorlax are still considered OU.

Alakazam has lost the elemental punches, and is relegated to Psychic, Shadow ball, energy ball, focus blast, and the odd tricking of a choice item. However, plenty of psychics do this all better - as a result of pulling it off more than once.

Snorlax should honestly be moved to BL - while its not terrible, it is inferior to blissey (strike one), lacks a recovery move not known as rest (strike 2), it also has relatively inferior stats (strike 3 - out).

Houndoom is a peculiar one - it's very powerful, but its frail as poo. Weakness to Water, fighting, ground, rock. Most importantly, 25% stealth rock.

Medicham should be considered BL - 482 Attack is good, but it has a movepool problem - rock slide, psycho cut, 4 fighting moves, elemental punches. But it misses what set it apart from so many others - physical shadow ball.

Torterra is BL - 4x weak to ice, no real recovery move, and grass sucks in terms of type coverage. It looks like a donphan that got grass typing and has no rapid spin.

Aside from Scyther, Pika, and possibly Vigoroth, NFE's should be left out (I look at BL Chansey). And, if Snorlax is kicked down, that won't be a problem. Kadabra isn't an exception.

Lapras is UU - weak to Stealth rock, not such a good offensive movepool, no way to increase the defenses aside from Curse. no healing aside from rest. Did I mention the typing affords it 1 resist (ice) and one immunity (water).

The tier list needs fixups.


Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:29 pm
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Lapras needs to stay BL. Have you ever faced Ice Shard/Return/Waterfall/DD?

The NFEs that should be allowed are:

Trapinch: Plays completely different than Flygon. Arena Trap is a great trait, it has different STABs, and the Spd just screams Trick Room. NU, possibly UU.
Vigoroth: Again, completely different than Slaking. Mediocre stats but good movepool and a much better trait than Truant. UU.
Pikachu: Only here because of Light Ball. Either UU or BL.
Clamperl: Only here because of DeepSeaTooth/DeepSeaScale (more notably the former). UU.
Scyther: Plays differently than Scizor in more Spd, less defenses, different typing. UU.
Porygon2: Plays differently than Porygon-Z in a much bulkier spread, still usable (read: 115 base) SAttk, and good support movepool involving Recover. BL.


Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:43 am
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Vital Spirit gives Vigoroth BL status, IMO.

Trapinch could work BL

Pikachu is an electric with the ability to scare hippowdon in more ways than one. Surf, Grass Knot.


Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:29 pm
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Post Re:
Peanut-Lover wrote:
Vital Spirit gives Vigoroth BL status, IMO.

Trapinch could work BL

Pikachu is an electric with the ability to scare hippowdon in more ways than one. Surf, Grass Knot.


vital spirit is just a mediocre abiity that counters, a spore/hypnosis but the only reason why we see that ability "soooo great" is because of slaking's truant...but vigorth's stats are not that high nor is his movepool not that great to match with his stats.... and people are debating about it now if slaking should be considered BL or OU status....it's UU at best...

Trapinch ONLY and ONLY works as a revenge killer trick room choice banded or life orbed....other than that you cant really do anything with him...and if you can do something else with him, flygon will do it better...so it is NU/UU

ppl are only usin pikachu now because of his light ball...at which is still very easy to counter with many other pokemon. and most ppl would run a jolly/timid nature on him, because pikachu needs all the speed it can get, so that would make his special attack 398 at max with the right IVs, that's very high but still easy to counter with his "OK" speed...and without a focus stash his fragile body can be OHKOed by many simple moves UU for sure


Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:24 pm
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Problem is that slaking has no counters in uu - he's too strong.

For them to be moved down a tier, they must be a.) too weak for the upper tier, but more importantly b.) it must have counters in the lower tier.

He is borderline - he isn't too weak for bl, ohkoing everything (2 turns, granted).


Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:30 pm
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Peanut-Lover wrote:
Problem is that slaking has no counters in uu - he's too strong.

For them to be moved down a tier, they must be a.) too weak for the upper tier, but more importantly b.) it must have counters in the lower tier.

He is borderline - he isn't too weak for bl, ohkoing everything (2 turns, granted).



lol no i meant VIGiROTH should be UU at best hahaha..i mean your right about slaking...he is way too powerful with a giga impact, body slam, or return


Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:42 am
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I'd like to argue about Hitmonchan being in the UU. At least in 4th gen
55 base HP
105 base atk
79 base def
110 base s.def
76 speed which can be boosted x2 by agility

90 base power physical Ice and Thunder punch w/Iron fist
120 power STAB physical Close combat

All he needs is Adamant nature + IVs into Attack/HP/DEF and he easily clobbers everything listed in UU with the moveset
-Ice punch
-Thunder punch
-Close combat
-Agility

To him 3 strong diverse type moves that give him an advantage to 10/17 types and 0/17 resist

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Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:58 pm
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Earthquake > Agility, and he'll have alot better - taking on his main counters in Toxicroak and Muk. That is, if the choice scarf is used to make up for lis less than stellar speed.

Or, pursuit for the ghosts (namely frosslass, rotom, shedinja). Especially on choice scarf versions.

This isn't a rate though, just showing what else it could do.

and this thing looks great - except it is stopped by several - muk/toxicroak without earthquake, shedinja if it doesn't have fire punch or stone edge, most ghosts. Nidoking/queen thanks to immunity and resists (again, Earthquake). Of course, stepping away from the punches, you just have a weak hitmonlee and primape.

It also wouldn't do that well in BL - way too many things can kill it, and base 76 speed isn't all that good for something this frail .

On a seperate note, questions about iron fist - the boost of 20% goes to Bullet Punch, Comet Punch, Drain Punch, Fire Punch, Focus Punch, Ice Punch, Mach Punch, Mega Punch, Sky Uppercut, and ThunderPunch. What about Close Combat and brick break? more info, pls.


Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:19 pm
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True. Muk and Toxicroak can counter him quite well, EQ would help him a lot! O.O (I had no idea he could learn it...) Methinks that'll replace thunder punch on mine. That ups him to having advantage to 12/17 base types >:D

Pursuit is a good option for ghosts that'll usually be switched in to him, but pursuit at 2x damage is only 80 power, Ice punch is 90 w/Iron fist and frosglass can be done by EQ. Shedinja is a problem, but it's not worth a move solely to counter it.

Agility is a must for him and his speed :/ IV's in HP and DEF helps him absorb at least one hit so agility can be placed in.

To my knowledge Iron fist only affects Bullet Punch, Comet Punch, Drain Punch, Fire Punch, Focus Punch, Ice Punch, Mach Punch, Mega Punch, Sky Uppercut, ThunderPunch and I assume Sucker punch and Shadow punch (Though he doesn't learn them...)
I know close combat isn't affected, not sure about Brick break.

Also for a note against him: It is a freaking B**** to get a +atk nature tyroge to evolve into chan >.<

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Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:57 am
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But by getting rid of thunderpunch, you lose coverage of waters and flyers, namely mantine, poliwrath, dodrio, and swellow.

I recommended choice scarf > life orb, but agility is certainly a viable option.

And, thats why using a ditto with adamant nature is best.


Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:18 pm
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Peanut-Lover wrote:
But by getting rid of thunderpunch, you lose coverage of waters and flyers, namely mantine, poliwrath, dodrio, and swellow.

I recommended choice scarf > life orb, but agility is certainly a viable option.

And, thats why using a ditto with adamant nature is best.


Dodrio and swellow can be hit well w/ Ice punch. but the others would take some more effort >.<

I wouldn't recommend life orb on a hitmonchan w/agility since his HP will likely be cut greatly to get the speed boost into effect. Muscle band/Expert belt is sufficient.

Yes, I got an adamant ditto just for breeding this poke .

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Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:33 am
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i see shedinja alot in the battletower. its not exactly under used.

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Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:14 am
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