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[ 24 posts ] |
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The common misconception of 'Dark' pokemon
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P3T3Y
Pokemon Trainer
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:35 pm Posts: 27 Location: GMT -7
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After reading several topics containing such gibberish as:
Quote:
I really can't think of any other type that they can come up with except maybe Holy (Opposite of Dark)
I feel it is my duty as an educated individual bestow upon you my knowledge on this topic.
Like so many other games, Pokemon originated in Japan; and like many games it too suffers from translation errors, amongst them most notably is the Dark type introduced in the Gold/Silver generation.
Dark was a poorly chosen English word to try to convey the concept.
You'll notice that they didn't make a "Light" type to counter it, because in fact Dark's opposite is Fighting (hence the weakness). Reason being that Fighting-type pokemon are known for their discipline and prowess, they've mastered numerous fighting techniques and fight honorably and with finesse. Whereas their opposite, Dark-type pokemon, fight underhandedly with moves like Bite, Thief, Taunt and Sucker Punch, these moves aren't evil they're merely what someone would do to try to do to get the upper hand. What it basically comes down to is the trained vs. the untrained, and that Nintendo's regionalization team had to pick a word that wouldn't give the anti-pokemon groups of the time any more ammunition. A much more suitable word would have been "Sinister" or "Malicious".
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:01 am |
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Mr.Chaos
Dragon Tamer
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 1:37 pm Posts: 151 Location: In a castle fighting zombies
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Thats a very good theory
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:49 am |
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P3T3Y
Pokemon Trainer
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:35 pm Posts: 27 Location: GMT -7
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It's not a theory...
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:35 am |
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Groudon King
Pokemon Ranger
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:24 pm Posts: 521 Location: Cave of Origins, in the Depths of the Abyss
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Well, Mr. Chaos has it about right, it is overall a theory. You noted the fighting types as if they are the only thing connected to the dark types just because they have power over dark types. Your theory lacks the connection with the dark types power over ghost and psychic types, so the whole "Sinister" or "Malicious" thing is not much of a fact. If they did invent a Light type of pokemon they should have the powers between them go full circle. It would be interesting to see something like light pokemon would be weak to dark attack, while at the same time dark being weak to light attacks.
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:31 am |
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P3T3Y
Pokemon Trainer
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:35 pm Posts: 27 Location: GMT -7
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There doesn't have to be a rhyme or reason to its relationship to ghost or psychic other than game balance; explain Psychic's relationship to Poison, or Bug to Psychic.
From what I was told by an associate the literal translation of あく is more along the lines of malign or baleful (funny how japanese people have better vocabularies than native english speakers, I had to look baleful up for the actual meaning).
I'll admit my reasoning as to why they may have chosen the word "Dark" is a theory, but the fact the Dark pokemon fight like savages and are out classed by Fighting pokemon's technique makes sense.
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:07 am |
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Groudon King
Pokemon Ranger
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:24 pm Posts: 521 Location: Cave of Origins, in the Depths of the Abyss
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Well as true as that is a new problem has appeared, attacks like Crunch, Bite, Sucker Punch, and so on would fit that effect of underhanded attacks, but now there are a few new Dark type attacks that would not fit the underhanding thing. Dark Void, and Dark Pulse... both of them use dark energy to create sleep (Dark Void) and damge (Dark Pulse). These moves have dark types in the dark as in element.
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:12 pm |
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Legendary Rock Master
blah blah blah
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:12 pm Posts: 92
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Argreed. I know my Skuntank can beat any fighting pok'emon and it has a good HP stat to.
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:25 pm |
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P3T3Y
Pokemon Trainer
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:35 pm Posts: 27 Location: GMT -7
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Groudon King wrote: Well as true as that is a new problem has appeared, attacks like Crunch, Bite, Sucker Punch, and so on would fit that effect of underhanded attacks, but now there are a few new Dark type attacks that would not fit the underhanding thing. Dark Void, and Dark Pulse... both of them use dark energy to create sleep (Dark Void) and damge (Dark Pulse). These moves have dark types in the dark as in element.
Did you take into consideration these moves may have also suffered a poor translation? I can understand trying to play Devil's Advocate, but the fact remains Dark does not = Evil and thus a "Light" type is just a fan creation.
Legendary Rock Master wrote: Argreed. I know my Skuntank can beat any fighting pok'emon and it has a good HP stat to.
Skuntank has the benefit of also being Poison so it balances out its weakness to Fighting.
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:43 pm |
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Treeckoluv
Pokemon Ranger
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:31 pm Posts: 892 Location: In your kitchen, holding a knife. And it's not for the vegetables...
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P3T3Y wrote: Groudon King wrote: Well as true as that is a new problem has appeared, attacks like Crunch, Bite, Sucker Punch, and so on would fit that effect of underhanded attacks, but now there are a few new Dark type attacks that would not fit the underhanding thing. Dark Void, and Dark Pulse... both of them use dark energy to create sleep (Dark Void) and damge (Dark Pulse). These moves have dark types in the dark as in element.
Did you take into consideration these moves may have also suffered a poor translation? I can understand trying to play Devil's Advocate, but the fact remains Dark does not = Evil and thus a "Light" type is just a fan creation.
Legendary Rock Master wrote: Argreed. I know my Skuntank can beat any fighting pok'emon and it has a good HP stat to.
Skuntank has the benefit of also being Poison so it balances out its weakness to Fighting.
Dude, you sound like your trying to prove that it is exactly what you say. And that is exactly what your doing, trying to get everybody to think your right. Truth is, it might not. Therefor, this topic is pointless.
But anyhow, no, I don't believe you because of moves such as Dark void and Dark Pulse (not to mention Darkrai. He is evil.).
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:23 pm |
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magikoopa
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never thought of it taht way (my weavile is still evil just for the record)
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:05 pm |
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Groudon King
Pokemon Ranger
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:24 pm Posts: 521 Location: Cave of Origins, in the Depths of the Abyss
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Quote: Did you take into consideration these moves may have also suffered a poor translation?
How does that prove anything, it is the visual that counts... When the move Dark Void is used a dark energy makes a cloud that makes pokemon fall asleep, and with Dark Pulse it creates a dark energy wave that damages the foe. So even if the moves real names (Japannesse ones) are different that the English version, the moves are the same.
You say that Dark really means evil, and that is way you made this topic, to show that they really are not evil. Well they are Dark types as an element not as a force of wrong. The only mistake made here is comparing Good Vs. Evil to Light Vs. Dark, while true that light is seen as good and dark as evil that isn't true.
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:51 pm |
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P3T3Y
Pokemon Trainer
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:35 pm Posts: 27 Location: GMT -7
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Groudon King wrote: The only mistake made here is comparing Good Vs. Evil to Light Vs. Dark
I didn't make this mistake, that's the common misconception I'm trying to clear up.
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:24 pm |
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Groudon King
Pokemon Ranger
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:24 pm Posts: 521 Location: Cave of Origins, in the Depths of the Abyss
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P3T3Y wrote: Groudon King wrote: The only mistake made here is comparing Good Vs. Evil to Light Vs. Dark
I didn't make this mistake, that's the common misconception I'm trying to clear up.
You seemed to have missed the point. Good and Light are not one and the same, as well as Evil and Dark are not one and the same. But darkness and light are in a full circle with one being weak to the other.
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:57 pm |
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DNA
Trivia Champion
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:37 pm Posts: 3170 Location: clegavel
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There is an apparent contrast between 'Light' and 'Dark' types.
The Psychic type is effectually the Light type. In RBY, the Psychic type was so overpowered practically nothing could beat it. (A decent Dugtrio or Persian could bring down Alakazam, but Mewtwo was practically unstoppable) So in GSC, they created the Dark type to try and even out the gap, making it to oppose Psychic, giving it immunity to that type. Not to mention quite a few Psychic moves are light oriented (Mirror Coat, Reflect, Light Screen).
If it were truly balanced, they would each be weak or resistant to the other. But Pokemon is just an imbalanced game in general - Poison is severely underpowered, Steel is severely overpowered (defensively).
So yes, there is a contrast, but a pretty botched one at that.
- DNA
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:50 pm |
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girog
Illiterate
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:47 pm Posts: 138 Location: Hint: that's not your house settling at night.
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This idea may be absolutely no help, but it may also be one of the most helpful things.
What do you think of first when you hear the word "dark"? A direct contrast to light. Maybe a dictionary definition could help:
dark |därk| adjective 1 with little or no light : it's too dark to see much. • hidden from knowledge; mysterious : a dark secret. • archaic ignorant; unenlightened : he is dark on certain points of scripture. • (of a theater) closed; not in use : on Tuesdays he’d wait tables because the theater was dark. 2 (of a color or object) not reflecting much light; approaching black in shade : dark green. • (of someone's skin, hair, or eyes) brown or black in color. • (of a person) having such skin, hair, or eyes : both my father and I are very dark. • figurative (of a sound or taste) having richness or depth : a distinctive dark, sweet flavor. • served or drunk with only a little or no milk or cream. 3 (of a period of time or situation) characterized by tragedy, unhappiness, or unpleasantness : the dark days of the war. • gloomily pessimistic : a dark vision of the future. • (of an expression) angry; threatening : Matthew flashed a dark look at her. • suggestive of or arising from evil characteristics or forces; sinister : so many dark deeds had been committed. 4 Phonetics denoting a velarized form of the sound of the letter l (as in pull). noun 1 ( the dark) the absence of light in a place : Carolyn was sitting in the dark | he's scared of the dark. • nightfall : I'll be home before dark. 2 a dark color or shade, esp. in a painting. PHRASES the darkest hour is just before the dawn proverb when things seem to be at their worst, they are about to start improving. in the dark in a state of ignorance about something : we're clearly being kept in the dark about what's happening. keep something dark keep something secret from other people : I asked Ann to keep my identity dark. a shot (or stab) in the dark; an act whose outcome cannot be foreseen; a mere guess.
Or some synonyms/antonyms might help:
dark adjective 1 a dark night black, pitch-black, jet-black, inky; unlit, unilluminated; starless, moonless; dingy, gloomy, dusky, shadowy, shady; literary Stygian. antonym bright, a dark secret, mysterious, secret, hidden, concealed, veiled, covert, clandestine; enigmatic, arcane, esoteric, obscure, abstruse, impenetrable, incomprehensible, cryptic. dark hair, brunette, dark brown, chestnut, sable, jet-black, ebony. antonym blond/blonde dark skin, swarthy, dusky, olive, brown, black, ebony; tanned, bronzed. antonym pale, dark days tragic, disastrous, calamitous, catastrophic, cataclysmic; dire, awful, terrible, dreadful, horrible, horrendous, atrocious, nightmarish, harrowing; wretched, woeful, antonym happy, dark thoughts, gloomy, dismal, pessimistic, negative, downbeat, bleak, grim, fatalistic, black, somber; despairing, despondent, hopeless, cheerless, melancholy, glum, grave, morose, mournful, doleful. antonym optimistic, a dark look, moody, brooding, sullen, dour, scowling, glowering, angry, forbidding, threatening, ominous, dark deeds, evil, wicked, sinful, immoral, bad, iniquitous, ungodly, unholy, base; vile, unspeakable, sinister, foul, monstrous, shocking, atrocious, abominable, hateful, despicable, odious, horrible, heinous, execrable, diabolical, fiendish, murderous, barbarous, black; sordid, degenerate, depraved; dishonorable, dishonest, unscrupulous; informal lowdown, dirty, crooked, shady. antonym virtuous, good. noun 1 he's afraid of the DARK, darkness, blackness, gloom, murkiness, shadow, shade; dusk, twilight, gloaming. antonym light. 2 she went out after DARK, night, nighttime, darkness; nightfall, evening, twilight, sunset. antonym dawn, day. (taken from the Oxford American Dictionary/theosaurus. I was too lazy to just write them, so that makes me DARK.)
There isn't really dark. It's just the absence of light. The universe is made up of dark matter, which is nothing.
As you can see, the word "dark" can mean many things, so it may be impossible to tell what it was meant to mean. I believe that they may be referencing Ninjas, as they are sneaky (Shadow force), throw sharp stuff (Fling), and have those über cool katanas (night slash). I'm guessing that most of you stopped reading my post the second I mentioned Ninjas(Tomorrow i'll write a post referencing pirates!), and you also probably just skimmed the definitions.
NOTE TO MODS:I'm sorry this post took so much space, I'm just trying to help clear up an argument. Plz don't punish me for spamming. I cut it down considerably.
Last edited by girog on Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:23 pm |
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EvilPenguin
Gym Leader
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:46 am Posts: 1554
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I beliwve you are trying fo be too literal in your arguments. You keep making the case that it is the opposite of fighting, but what if it was directed at the ghost and psychic strengths? It would correspond with the 'evil' theme (ghosts and spirits are often risen/controlled by evil powers in stories, etc; and see DNA's post for why Psychic = Light) As for why fighting is SE against Dark, like you said, type balancing.
As for why it is called the Dark type, you have to remember that these games are being created for kids as young as 6-7. No 6 year old knows what the word "malicious" means. By that theory, they could have just as easily made types called "Plant", "Bird", "Metal", and "Mineral", for the types we know as Grass, Flying, Steel, and Rock (Granted, I always thought that "plant" made more sense than "grass", but thats beside the point).
Finally, look at the pokemon of the dark type in Johto, when the type was released. Off the top of my head, there were 5 fully evolved dark types - Umbreon, Sneasel, Houndoom, Murkrow, and Tyrannitar. Its easy to see how Umbreon is dark type, as it evolves in the night, and was the evolutionary split of Espeon, the daytime pokemon. Note that Espeon is of the psychic type. Houndoom is a devil dog, enough said. Murkrow and Sneasel are only found at night. And tyrannitar... do I need to go into him?
All in all, I think you need to look at both sides of your argument. The readons for why dark is fighting's antithesis are strong, its just the reasons for its relationship with Psychic/Light are stronger
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Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:29 pm |
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Minato4325
Psychic Trainer
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:34 pm Posts: 91 Location: The world that feeds the world
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Looks like someone did their homework. But if the translation team picked the closest thing in translation, the anti-poke people would have their bombs ready.
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Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:52 pm |
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AKART
Dragon Tamer
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:01 am Posts: 204 Location: Riding on Salamence, looking for Bidoof to kill
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Dude, Weavile and Migtyena are definitely carnivores, thats probably where the `dark` bit comes from. But think about Absol; people call it a dark type because apparently Whenever Absol appears, natural disasters occur. But its actually the other way round; As soon as Absol senses disasters it races towards it, attempting to stop it. People see it so often amongst disasters that they have started to belive that Absol is the cause of the disasters.
is not evil!!!
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Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:41 am |
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magikoopa
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AKART wrote: Dude, Weavile and Migtyena are definitely carnivores, thats probably where the `dark` bit comes from. But think about Absol; people call it a dark type because apparently Whenever Absol appears, natural disasters occur. But its actually the other way round; As soon as Absol senses disasters it races towards it, attempting to stop it. People see it so often amongst disasters that they have started to belive that Absol is the cause of the disasters.
is not evil!!!
YAY FOR EVIL WEAVILES
ok back to the point well absol sorta is evil because it is using "tricky like moves" such as said before fighing is honest like and dark is using things like suckerpunch fake out it is dishonest idk sounds good to me
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Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:51 am |
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PalletAsh
Bug Catcher
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:37 am Posts: 23
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dont hate me for taking sides but right now im with P3T3y's theory, dark moves like crunch and bite are made to make the opponent flinch which is the perfect opportunity to strike an opponent down to nothng,theif on the other hand is a burglars move stealing items AND hurting the opponent so that they get items from a battle,i'm with P3T3Y...
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Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:16 pm |
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Groudon King
Pokemon Ranger
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:24 pm Posts: 521 Location: Cave of Origins, in the Depths of the Abyss
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You use moves as Crunch and Theif as part of your arggument, but don't forget Dark Void, and Dark Pulse, that are of a dark element and not of a 'underhanded' move. If these dark type moves did not came to be then this topic would have a lot more stranght.
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Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:21 pm |
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Galar
Gym Leader
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:04 am Posts: 1320 Location: Sky Tower
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Your point on why Dark types are weak against Fighting types is actually very interesting, and I'll go with that. But indeed it doesn't relate to the Psychic or Ghost types (unless it's really just to counterbalance, even though I think at least most of the Waekness/Resistance combinations do make sense). Psychic types, in my view, should overpower the Dark types because they could technically see through their ways, since they're apparently so connected to the mind and the environment, they're kind of transcendental (sp?) beings. As for the Ghosts, well, I guess they're neutral (even though some DO enjoy pulling pranks and playing tricks), but their powers are mainly "spiritual", so I don't see the relation with the Dark type.
I like to go with the "it's an element" theory as well, they both could work at the same time. It's a family or group of Pokémon that work maliciously to win their battles, it's their characteristic, and I also don't see the connection with "evilness". It's just pure dark energy; "dark" as in opposite of "light", in the literal sense, not in the metaphorical one. "Dark" isn't exactly "evil", but, seeing it is technically hard to see clearly, it should be why these Pokémon use these tricks to try to gain the advantage.
I have to refer everything to the japanese origin and culture though, because I myself would atribute the benefit of "enlightment" (and thus overpowering the "cheap" tricks the Dark Pokémon utilize) to the Psychic types. But yeah, I do have to agree that the traditional eastern fighters have to acquire all this balance and discipline to progress.
It's just that we do associate "darkness" with "evilness" because of myths and religions, but I guess in the world of fantasy it could also have this base of a different element, just like water, fire or electricity.
Since we're speaking of translations here, I guess I'll share with you this useless piece of information. In the brazilian dub, many types have different names. "Dark", for instance, is "Nocturnal"; "Steel" is "Metalic"; "Bug" is "Insect" (because the correct portuguese word for "Bug" doesn't exclusively apply to these specific groups of animals) and "Grass" is "Plant". Just so you know.
Good points, and a very nice discussion. Keep up the good arguments, guys.
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Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:40 am |
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magikoopa
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P3T3Y wrote: There doesn't have to be a rhyme or reason to its relationship to ghost or psychic other than game balance; explain Psychic's relationship to Poison, or Bug to Psychic.
From what I was told by an associate the literal translation of あく is more along the lines of malign or baleful (funny how japanese people have better vocabularies than native english speakers, I had to look baleful up for the actual meaning).
I'll admit my reasoning as to why they may have chosen the word "Dark" is a theory, but the fact the Dark pokemon fight like savages and are out classed by Fighting pokemon's technique makes sense.
well this theory also explains the poisen psychic thing sorta like honest trusting vs tricky
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Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:18 am |
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girog
Illiterate
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:47 pm Posts: 138 Location: Hint: that's not your house settling at night.
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I wrote: dark secret, mysterious, secret, hidden, concealed, veiled, covert, clandestine; enigmatic, arcane, esoteric, obscure, abstruse, impenetrable, incomprehensible, cryptic.
Ditchin' the ninja stuff, it could mean clandestine, or incomprehensible. None of the dark moves are straightforward, they're all sneaky, or underhanded. A better word might be secretive, though it would be rather hard to fit in as an abbreviation. (src. sct. qlb.)
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Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:00 pm |
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