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 Pokemon Debuts 
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Does anyone else think that a pokemon's debut makes an impact on its reception among the community.

I mean think about it. Let's take Magnemite --> Magneton --> Magnezone for example.

I've heard many a person say that they dislike magnezone, and magneton didn't need an evolution, due to the fact that it worked perfectly fine in battle on its own. 120 SA and 90 SD sounds good to me, right?

HOWEVER

Just LOOK at magneton's design! It's three magnemite pasted together. Not very creative is it? I'd drop dead in shock if someone came up to me and said that magneton's design was more creative than magnezone's. A UFO pokemon? We don't have one of those yet, and magnezone's a very welcome addition.

So what I'm trying to get at here, is, if magnezone was a Kanto pokemon, would less people hate it? My answer is this: very yes.

Magnezone is a much more creative evolution than magneton. I'm not saying magnezone should've replaced magneton, but I think it's good that through the radiation of Mt. Coronet, Magneton can transform into something more creative. The three magnemites finally become one! If magnezone was a Kanto pokemon, people would have accepted it as a part of life. How many people say things like "ZOMG KADABRA DID NOT NEED AN EVOLUTION!"? Nobody, because kadabra and alakazam debuted at the same time. However, 120 SA and 105 Spd is VERY hard to argue with.

Another example is the Roselia family. Many people argue that Roselia is not "cool" enough to have receieved both a pre-evo AND an evo. Hell, even I argued this point at one point. Budew gives Roselia lolwater sport, and roselia's obviously stronger, but people still complain. How about looking at them all together? What happened was me was that, as I looked at all three of them, I saw that they really are the perfect family, about as perfectly fitting as oddish-gloom-vileplume! Budew, the little bud, evolves into a premature rose, and the roserade, the ultimate rose death machine!

Think anybody would've complained if Budew and Roserade were Hoenn pokemon? I think not.

Discuss, por favor.


Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:12 am
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Hmmm...interesting. And I really don't think so either. Except in the case of Tangela/Tangrowth. That has got to be one of the most un-creative evolutions I have witnessed in the history of Pokemon. I mean, you're making Tangela 6x bigger...and that's it.

I definitely think, however, that Magnezone would have been hated much less in the color generation days, as well. Not to mention, I've been praying for an Evolution, or at least a Pre-evo for Roselia for quite awhile, seeing as there's so much potential.

Magmortar and Electivire...I don't know about them. Remember, should things have gone the way you're suggesting, Magmortar would have been present in the Color days, but Magby would not have been. Same for electivire. All in all, I believe it was a better decision to wait until now to give Magmar/Electabuzz an evolution, since they couldn't think up one to fit them into Hoenn.

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Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:28 am
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I could never agree with you more, pelligargetic. Magmortar, magnezone, electivire and many other pokemon have gotten rotten comments. Now, everyone says the Kanto starters are the best. But to be thruthful, it's just because they were there originaly, so everyone loves them instead. If Empoleon was the 1st water starter and blastoise was the 4th, Empoleon would have greater attention and Blastoise would get some nasty comments, and I have never seen someone say "Blastoise is teh uglyz".

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Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:32 am
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My brother and my friends were saying the same thing and I completely agree with you. I really don't dislike any Pokemon and if you do, too bad. They're there, deal with them.


Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:51 am
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Esca wrote:
Hmmm...interesting. And I really don't think so either. Except in the case of Tangela/Tangrowth. That has got to be one of the most un-creative evolutions I have witnessed in the history of Pokemon. I mean, you're making Tangela 6x bigger...and that's it.


Poliwhirl -> Poliwrath. Pidegotto -> Pidgeot. Cubone -> Marowak. Voltorb -> Electrode. Krabby -> Kingler. Grimer -> Muk. Ponyta -> Rapidash. Growlithe -> Arcanine. Nidoran M -> Nidorino. Nidoran F -> Nidorina.

And that's just Kanto. Yes, some of them do have minor differences between them and their evolutions, but about as much as tangela -> tangrowth, seeing as tangrowth has arms and slightly bigger fur, and different body shape.

Quote:
I definitely think, however, that Magnezone would have been hated much less in the color generation days, as well. Not to mention, I've been praying for an Evolution, or at least a Pre-evo for Roselia for quite awhile, seeing as there's so much potential.

Magmortar and Electivire...I don't know about them. Remember, should things have gone the way you're suggesting, Magmortar would have been present in the Color days, but Magby would not have been. Same for electivire. All in all, I believe it was a better decision to wait until now to give Magmar/Electabuzz an evolution, since they couldn't think up one to fit them into Hoenn.


I forgot to mention magby and elekid, simply because they aren't hated.


Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:54 am
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Um...none of them really needed evos, except maybe Lickitung, Gligar, Togetic, Piloswine and Tangela. :/

For Sinnoh I wanted to see a bunch of new, useful, creative looking pokemon (emphasis on the word NEW and CREATIVE), not a bunch of freaking evolutions and pre-evolutions. That's what I hated about GSC; useless pokemon like Magby and Pichu.


Edit: The worst evolution of them all is Gallade. I'v hated this pokemon from the day I saw it because it's soooooooo unnecessary and it's soooooooo UGLY. Gardevoir was an alright pokemon, but Gallade is definitely one of the worst pokemon ever made.

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Last edited by Krisp on Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:08 am
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I mostly disagree.

I've seen some people going "lol Scizor" because it gave Scyther a 4x weakness against Fire and dropped his Speed quite a lot (105 to 65). Yet I love the red mantis for its design and other silly features that are unnimportant to battle. It has nothing to do with generations, really, just the Pokémon itself.

However, regarding some 4th Generation Pokémon that were mentioned here, I have to say, for example, Magmortar is one of the ugliest things in the Pokémon universe, and its not because "it came after" or because "Magmar didn't need an evolution". It's just ugly, plain and simple. Magmar was fine, Magby was awesome (and it came after Magmar, even owned it in my opinion), but I'm afraid Magmortar can't even pass off with a bag covering its face.

And I have to disagree with this "everyone says the Kanto Pokés are the coolest" comment of you people. My favorite starters belong to Hoenn, my favorite legends are those of Johto, my favorite "unique" has to be Riolu/Lucario (a 4th OMG), my favorite generation is the third. Kanto indeed is awesome, because those Pokémon were great, in looks, battle-stats or whatever you may think of, AND because it was something new, not JUST because it was the first. But being the original doesn't mean it would turn out the best overall. I would rate the generations along the lines of Hoenn > Kanto > Johto > Sinnoh.

You people just gotta accept the fact some Pokémon are uncool regardless of their generation. I simply can't see myself liking Magnezone any better if it belonged to the first generation, because it would still be that ugly thing. I don't see a problem with Magneton getting an evolution, I could care less for that: as I said, I like Pokémon mostly for their aspects that are kind of unrelated to Battle, so Magnezone is a big fail. I don't really care if their stats/moves remained basically the same or not (or whatever reason there is) and thus an evolution/pre-evolution wasn't needed, as long as they have something else that can back them up (like Scizor's design, for example).

The problem with the 4th generation in my honest opinion (and the reason I can think of to justify complaints about it) is that it has way too many evos/pre-evos and most of them just look so bad (only exception I can think of right now is Gliscor).

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Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:28 am
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There are only two types of new evolutions I dislike: first, there are the ones that don't do justice to their pre-evolutions, like Magnezone and Electivire. I used to dislike MANY more of the new evolutions in PD, but they have grown on me. However, I personally think that Magnezone and Electivire just look flatout stupid, and I doubt I will ever like them.

The other type of evolutions that I dislike includes Pokemon that are completely and totally unnecessary (sup Rhyperior and Gallade). Gallade, in particular, seems like nothing more than pandering to little boys who thought that Gardevoir was coooool but didn't want to use a GIRLY Pokemon. And Rhydon was certainly not at the top of my list when it came to Pokemon who needed evolutions.

In contrast to most people's reactions when DP's Pokemon were first discovered, I have liked Lickilicky, Tangrowth, Yanmega, Froslass and Togekiss ALL from day ONE. However, I found the abundance of new pre-evolutions in DP somewhat annoying. Mantyke, Budew and especially Chingling (though cute) are all worthless.

For that matter, I generally dislike most baby Pokemon because, other than providing an odd useful move (and really, Wynaut giving Wobbuffet Encore is the only example that comes to my mind), they are little more than totally useless tools to attract more mindless kiddies to the fanbase. The only baby Pokemon I really like are Happiny, Igglybuff and Cleffa because they're cute and don't seem out of place with their evolved forms.


Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:51 am
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I dont have a problem with most of the new evolutions. The majority of them either give weaker pokemon MUCH better stats, thus, at the very least, an attemp to increase the diversity of pokemon used (Tangrowth, Ambipom Yanmega); or they make something more creative/better looking (Magnezone, Mamoswine). The only evos I dont like are Gallade and Froslass, because they are branch-off evos and dont do anything about stats or looks. And while I at least understand the reasoning behind Gallade's creation (creating a male version of a pokemon obviously meant to be thought of as female), I am still puzzling over why Froslass exists. The only possible explanation I can think of is that it is supposed to balance out Gallade. I mean, you dont look at Glalie and think "Thats supposed to be male" like you do with Gardevoir thinking "Thats supposed to be female". In fact, I would have thought it would be genderless (hell, its a floating ball of ice)

Pre-evos, however, I tend to dislike (and note I am now talking all gens, not just 4th). To me, the majority of them are completely useless. Obviously, there are a couple of exceptions, like Wynaut (gives Wobby Encore), Tyrogue (connects the Hitmonbros together), and thats about it. Why were Bonsly and Mime jr made? What is the point of having Budew and Happiny? What purpose did Igglybuff, Cleffa, Magby, Azurill, Elekid, Smoochum, Pichu, and all the rest serve? The answer: Absolutely nothing except sit around, add another pokemon to obtain in the dex, and look cute.

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Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:27 pm
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I will give them little credit for the new evloutions, but the truth is they haven't came out with anything really new, about half the new Pokemon are based on the old ones, it is not the fact that I don't like them that I sometimes complain, it is just the fact that there is too much of them


Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:38 pm
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blaziken234 wrote:
I dont have a problem with most of the new evolutions. The majority of them either give weaker pokemon MUCH better stats, thus, at the very least, an attemp to increase the diversity of pokemon used (Tangrowth, Ambipom Yanmega); or they make something more creative/better looking (Magnezone, Mamoswine). The only evos I dont like are Gallade and Froslass, because they are branch-off evos and dont do anything about stats or looks. And while I at least understand the reasoning behind Gallade's creation (creating a male version of a pokemon obviously meant to be thought of as female), I am still puzzling over why Froslass exists. The only possible explanation I can think of is that it is supposed to balance out Gallade. I mean, you dont look at Glalie and think "Thats supposed to be male" like you do with Gardevoir thinking "Thats supposed to be female". In fact, I would have thought it would be genderless (hell, its a floating ball of ice)

Pre-evos, however, I tend to dislike (and note I am now talking all gens, not just 4th). To me, the majority of them are completely useless. Obviously, there are a couple of exceptions, like Wynaut (gives Wobby Encore), Tyrogue (connects the Hitmonbros together), and thats about it. Why were Bonsly and Mime jr made? What is the point of having Budew and Happiny? What purpose did Igglybuff, Cleffa, Magby, Azurill, Elekid, Smoochum, Pichu, and all the rest serve? The answer: Absolutely nothing except sit around, add another pokemon to obtain in the dex, and look cute.


I have to disagree a bit about the creation of Frolass. Glalie is "supposed" to be male. So, just like Gardevoir, it needs a balance. I mean, the only thing I'm annoyed of is that they have so many eevee evolutions and they didn't think of and evolution for Jynx. I mean, they made one for her fire and electric counter parts. Why didn't they make one for her?

Even though I do wonder now why they made the baby pokèmon, most of them were mainly for pokèmon that didn't have evolutions. It would have been smarter to make them have evolutions instead of pre-evolutions. I am not saying that about Tyrogue though. It was very creative for him. If only they made two evolutions for Wobbufett like they did Roselia.


Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:25 pm
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I seem to agree with most people, I like the new evolutions, but dislike the large amounts of pre-evos, to me they are all absolutely useless, did anyone specificly ask for Bonsly and/or Mime Jr?


Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:36 am
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Magneton is my personal favorite pokemon, and I think it was very, very good without the super-ugly, uneccessary evolution.

I too thought that PD showed a real lack of creativity with it's new pokemon. Half of them are just evos or pre-evos of pokemon that had already been in existance. For years. And I didn't really find those to be good designs anyway. Tangela's evo just looks impractical to me. It's a pike of spaghetti with ribbon arms. yep, that looks dangerous :? . The new pokemon introduced often looked alot like the old ones or didn't have anything that made me go "wow, I can't wait to catch one!". There were a couple I was excited about for sure, but not as many as I would have liked.

Some of you are arguing that people aren't liking them because of previous games, but I can honestly say that if this had been the very first pokemon game ever to come out...Pokemon would not be enjoying the same success it has.

As for the baby Pokemon, I will defend them for one reason. They rock the contest circuit. Nuff' said.

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Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:51 am
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I'm in Europe so I didn't get to play D/P yet (didn't feel like pirating it either), but I gotta say that the 4th generation looks VERY promising, and I love the new evolutions that were given to old pokémon, can't wait to add Magmortar and Mamoswine to my collection. I definetely agree that people are "biased" towards the first two gens. To me, 3rd generation is the weakest.


Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:29 am
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Wow! I was just about to create a thread similar to this but you seem to have beat me to it. So I'll state my peace here:
1. With the release of D/P, Pokemon has gone down the drain. Or at least in my mind, if not a whole lot of other people's mind. Why? Because the newly released pokemon have little to none originality to the concept and the names. From what I've seen from the new DP pokes is that they basically have taken the old "singles", as I call them, and given them evolutions that are not needed. When I found out that Magmar and Electabuzz had evo's, I was shocked!! It was like everything I knew about pokemon had gone out the window. Then Tangela!! And Magneton!! And, to my surprise, Lickitung!!! This is the one that most shocked me. First, not only do the evolutions themselves seem ridiculous, but their NAMES do too!! Lickylicky, the evo to Lickitung, just sounds ridiculous. Doesn't Lickitung say "licky-licky" when it talks anyway? Hmm, I wonder what Lickylicky will say.... As for Tangela, Electabuzz, Magmar, and Magneton, its just open shock. Magnezone(?) just looks like a giant tank when I first saw it. Tangrowth shows no originality at all and is just Tangela but bigger. Electivire(?) looks too bulky or hairy to be similar to his predecessors. And apparently there is an evo after Rhyhorn/Rhydon! Why?! Magmortar looks relatively close to Magmar but still, I always thought that Magmar would remain a "single".
2. I touched on this earlier: The "singles".
When the Kanto series of pokes came out, there was that little clump of pokemon, the series right before the Dratini-Draganair-Dragonite set, of entirely basic types with no evolution. To the best of my recollection and off the top of my head, they are Scyther, Magmar, Electabuzz, Jynx, Onix, Tangela, Lapras, Pinsir, Tauros, and Kanghaskhan. I had always imagined this set of pokemon to remain like this forever. You know, maybe there are some pokemon that DONT WANT TO EVOLVE!!! But then in the Johto series, they created Scizor and Steelix. I was fine with this and still am. Is it becuase I was younger and just thought "kool!! new pokemon!!" But now that I look back on it, it was because these two were the first steel-types which brought somethimg new to the table. But these new pokes in DP are just scams off of the originals and shows the lack of new ideas in the minds of the creators.
3. DO NOT MESS WITH PINSIR, LAPRAS, OR TAUROS!!! Many of my old childhood favorites feel ruined with the introduction of these new pokes for kids that just want something that looks "kool". Maybe I'm an "old timer" in the world of Pokemon, as I can still remember the days of Blue and Red. Maybe I'm set in my ways. But I seriously doubt that I'm not the only person that feels this way.

So there's my take on how Pokemon is going down the drain. Peace out!

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Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:04 am
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I agree, many people diss on Electivire. I believe this evolutions new ability is an asset to any team with a vunerability to Water. This gives him amazing sweeping potential. As for the whole evolution part in itself, although we are not talking about gens, the 4th Generation was based around the whole concept of evolution.

As for some, pokemon such as Gallade do not need to be created. I feel it is unnescessary to have a "4th" evolution when it is not better than its competion Gardevoir and is not very good all in itself. Storywise, if they have male gardevoirs, they should be able to have female gallades.

I think some of the newer evolutions were slightly less creative than before but are going stronger than they were befor too. Diglett - Dugtrio and Megnemite - Magneton had no real sense of creativity among them. But as such they repeated it with Tangrowth, electivire, and Magmortar.

For actually being "creative" the fact that the newest legendaries are "gods" this only furthers the point that GameFreak is running our of ideas.


Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:27 am
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In my opinion on all the new evos in general (in no particular order):

Crobat: At first I didn't think Crobat was all that great, but with great stats in general and a gigantic Speed stat? Definitely a worthwhile addition to the Zubat line.

Porygon-Z: This guy's all good. Has an incredible SpAtk stat, and Speed to match. He also has better defenses than Alakazam, and with Adaptability, his Tri Attack can reach 160 Base power (compare Alakazam's Psychic base power of 135). Besides, it still retains some of the cuteness of Porygon2.

Gallade: Ew...This is just a washed-out version of Hitmonlee or Medicham. It's not that good of a Pokemon in general. That's really all I have to say.

Rhyperior: Rhydon was good enough without an evolution, but why did they bother making one? Maybe they were running low on ideas. Still, Solid Rock is somewhat tempting.

Froslass: Virtually identical to Glalie, and not much else.

Weavile: The only redeeming feature of Weavile is a high Speed stat. With lacking defenses, attacks, and a 4x weakness to fighting, it won't stick around long.

Roserade: Roselia was pretty lousy in general in RSE, so this evolution is welcomed by me. It has somewhat low Defense, but it's a definite improvement from Roselia.

Togekiss: Same opinion as Roserade.

Slowking: Slowking's virtually the same as Slowbro, except Slowking has swapped Def with SpDef. In all other respects they are virtually the same, so if I had to pick one over the other I really couldn't, as they're virtually the same to me.

Tangrowth, Lickilicky, and Yanmega: Meh.

Glaceon and Leafeon: Oh please, now there are two new Eeveelutions? 5 was enough, but no, they had to go to 7. I hope I never see an Eevee or any Eeveelution ever again because of this.

Kingdra: Water and Dragon combo is a big first, and it's a great first too. Kingdra is pretty fast and weak to only Dragon-type moves, and those don't come by very often. Palkia may be seen as an upgraded version of Kingdra, but to me it's just a ripoff of Kingdra.

Politoed: Same comments here as I did with Slowking (except replace Slowbro with Poliwrath).

Scizor: It's just an improved version of Scyther, with lower speed and now a 4x weakness to Fire. Despite that, it is rather decent.

Blissey: As if Chansey wasn't evil enough, now we get an even stronger one. This Pokemon's excessive HP and SpDef have taken it to the point of OU, perhaps even being banned altogether from competitive battles. I just hate it in general, because I keep running into it in the BF. It's the same reason why I hate Wobbuffet.

Probopass and Dusknoir: Nothing more than washed-out Shuckles.

Mismagius and Honchkrow: They are both decent, although I find Mismagius better as a Special Sweeper, better than Roserade. Honchkrow I just find to be fun.

Electivire, Magmortar, and Gliscor: No comment.

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Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:41 pm
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^ While I respect your opinion, I believe that Dusknoir makes for a great Physical wall and a great tag team with the OU Blissey.


Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:53 pm
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Em, Dusknoir has pretty low HP, Classick, and it doesn't go well with those Defenses. Shuckle (duh), Regirock, and even Registeel are all better alternatives than Dusknoir. That's why I don't like Dusknoir all that much.
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Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:39 pm
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Ugh... where did the creativity go?
I saw a few of these new evolutions, and I thought,
"Wow, cool!" Boy was I wrong.

Most of these evolutions are just like their original counterparts-
useless wastes of data.

I do, however enjoy some of them (SOME), but most (such as Togekiss), I just flat-out hate.

Honestly, Nintendo, what happened?

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Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:31 am
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