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Edoc'sil wrote:
Jewish.And athiest.For me,science>religion.

Well, you can believe in Science and Religion. I am an example of that.

goldenquagsire wrote:
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The intent of the first crusade was to return the Jewish homeland to the jews.

I'm no expert in early medieval history, but this sounds... spurious.

I thought the Crusades were to return and protect holy places from the Muslims, who were rapidly gaining power at the time. I'm no expert, and we never covered this in world history, so I'm just going by my textbook.

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Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:50 pm
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Edoc'sil wrote:
Jewish.And athiest.For me,science>religion.

true that, as a Muslim I believe in that. like Sheikh Yusuf said when a Christian said that Religion has never been about proof, but it's about faith. "in Islam we have both".


Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:18 pm
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Zombie wrote:
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but religion is a product of humanity

and without people there is no religion

well first of all, the thing about Religion being the product of humanity is very debatable, and saying that in such a matter-of-factly way makes you come across as ignorant, so try to stay away from doing that in arguments.

and what Darktrainer was saying was that people are blaming the religion for the things that Muslims are doing, and you argue that religion is a product of those human, ergo, their accusations are justified. well let's assume that yes, the religion is indeed a product of humanity, that doesn't change anything, the original scriptures forbid this sort of behaviour, therefore these radicalists by my definition, aren't really Muslims.


Okay, I understand how Goldenquagsires statement can offend people, but calling it ignorant doesn't make sense. He stated it in a "matter of factly" way because it is a matter of fact. If religion wasn't a product of humanity, that means there is only one true religion that was here before humanity. There are all different religions because they're all different views from all different people. So, religion is most definitely a product of humanity. I'm sure there is some sort of omniscient and omnipotent being that created everything, or a life after death, but we can't truly know what they are. All of the religions in the world are simply the opinions and views on what these things could be.

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Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:22 am
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yeah, I wasn't offended. I was just expressing how GQ just saying "religion is a product" of humanity, as if it were a concrete, solid fact, made him come across as a person who thinks he has the answer, which makes him no better than the people who say "my religion is the correct one" as if it were a fact.

true there are many religions in the world that differ from region to region and so on, but that just expresses the human nature of "worship", because in Islam we believe a human was created with a need to "worship", and this extraordinary trait is to express how a human seeks his lord form birth. and as for the existance of many different religions all around the world, I respect any person who has a principal that he lives his life by, so i respect all of these faiths, but still, not all religions are equal, some are more pheasable than others, and as far as my own knowledge (I am yet to learn a lot more about religion) at this point in my life, Islam is the religion that makes most sense to me, I'd go on about why I believe this, but this is not the place.

I believe that learning about all faiths with an open mind is the best way to go, because I honestly (and forgive me for being conceited) believe that it's going to ultimately lead you to embracing Islam 9/10 of the time.


Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:36 pm
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Browners wrote:
This is my view on it generally:

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I was thinking of that quote as i was reading this. and a link to that quote also once found a place in my church's news letter.
I'm part of a UU congregation, i'm an atheist, but until there's a full separation of church and state in the USA (or when "in god we trust" is off the coins) i'm a pok


Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:01 pm
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I see comments like "Why is this important?" "Don't shove it down my throat?" etc.

I think an important fact to bring up is:

Science has proven that their is no possible way for the universe to have created its self.

Every law of physics confirms this.

I pose this question to you guys is:

How did it all begin?

Then from their we can "pick?" a God/religion/belief that upholds science.

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:51 pm
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The laws of physics that the universe can create it self.... What have you been smoking.

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Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:04 pm
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Dark_Swampert wrote:
The laws of physics that the universe can create it self.... What have you been smoking.


my post makes sense. your maybe needs editing?

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Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:37 pm
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I'm happy to tell you that I'm Catholic (Roman Catholic, not Polish Catholic, Ethiopian Catholic, or Eastern Catholic) and hate abortion and pro-abortionists. They can go to hell and I don't care. Anyway, sorry about that. But, that's my belief. So yeah. That's all I'm going to say about this.
EDIT: Whoa! No one's angry with me? Awwwww... I thought I was going to get into some serious debate at the least... Oh well, I am Catholic, BTW, so don't think I bluffed it all. And as for pro-abortionists... Let's just say that they aren't going to be happy at my post.
So see ya later!
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Last edited by torchie13125 on Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:18 pm
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Dark_Swampert wrote:
The laws of physics that the universe can create it self.... What have you been smoking.


Okay, now we shouldn't be disrespectful, but science hasn't proven anything about how the universe made itself. As far as we know, it was just here. People who are atheists seem to think the universe just is, it's always been here, they think if theres any kind of "god" it's the universe itself, because it's the only thing that seems to be just there, and always has. That's how we envision god, as an all powerful thing that created everything. Now, I have developed my own theory, that maybe there is a being like that, and he just kind of planted this "seed" in the universe and it grew on it's own, kind of blending creationism and evolution-ism together.

If we want to get into the kind of things I think to myself at night, well one of my ideas is that it started out in just a giant empty space of nothing. A place where it's nothing, you don't feel/see/smell/taste/hear anything because theres nothing, and possibly out of this nothing formed something, a "god" or what scientists may call " the atom". This thing started creating everything, have you ever read The Magician's Nephew? The first of the Narnia series (and arguably the best) where Aslan takes Polly and Elmer (or whatever his name is) to a place where it is nothing, pure blackness, no visible things, and Aslan gives a mighty roar and everything starts forming from that, light makes the ground seem visible, mountains start growing. And I guess I should note anything they planted into the ground would grow into a tree bearing the respected fruit, they grew toffee trees. :D (ah, I love those books) Well maybe this thing that was there just started giving off this sort of aura that began making just pure nothing, into space. It was empty space, true. But it wasn't nothing. You could feel the cold of it. I don't know, but thats one of my take on things. :D

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Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:51 pm
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KingErick wrote:
Dark_Swampert wrote:
The laws of physics that the universe can create it self.... What have you been smoking.


my post makes sense. your maybe needs editing?

No, your post does not make sense. Science has not proven that there is no way for the universe to have created itself. Scientists have come up with different theories about how the universe started, and the most commonly accepted one is the big bang theory, which has nothing to do with religion. It explains that the universe was condensed to a single point, and high energy buildup eventually cause an explosion which resulted in the rapid expansion of the universe.

What scientists are less sure of, is what things were like before the big bang. Just because they are unsure of what it was like, doesn't mean that science has proven that God created the universe, which is what you were implying. There are other subjects that people don't know everything about, so they continue to do research, knowing that there are things they don't know. I don't know why people treat this subject differently, and say that since we don't know everything, the only logical explanation is that some magical being created it. I believe that everything can be explained scientifically, but we haven't yet.

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Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:09 pm
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who says it has nothing to do with religion? the Bible and Quran say that God created the earth, they didn't say how.....look at it this way, scientists reckon that the entire universe was compressed into an area the size of an atom, so I want you to take a mosquito wing, and compress it into the size of an atom...or if that's too hard, tell me how you could do it....using all the genius and technology on earth, how could you compress a mosquito wing into the size of an atom? now we're talking the whole of existance being compressed into the size of an atom...sorry for sounding corny but....miracle?


Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:28 pm
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We shouldn't make this thread into a debate, should we? Well, the last thread about religion became a long and confusing thread to read on. And i don't think most of us has time for that, and i don't think that we really like it.


Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:48 pm
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Why shouldn't we? Awwwwwww... and I thought I was going to be in a debate, defending my Catholic views... I was worked up on this, and now what? It's okay,I guess. Religion is a complex thing, I agree. Whoever said that Religion is like a p****, well, some people are kids, and I don't think that'd be very... appropriate. (BTW, my brother showed this to me today, after he was reading this topic. Shame on the person who posted that thing! Yes, he's in sixth grade, but he's still a little sensitive about stuff like that. Heck, even I, a 16-year old girl, am a little sensitive in that matter.) I'm just saying it. You can choose to ignore me, and as I'm not a mod or admin, I have no power to stop you. I'm just imploring you as an older sister to a sensitive boy.
Thank you for hearing my plea.
As for religion, I'm still anti-abortionist, and not even a gogol dollars are going to get my view changed!
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P.S.: Was I a bit too sentimental? Most of the rating stuff that's by me is really from my brother! He begs me to do it for him, and he's just too lazy to join Psypoke himself!
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P.P.S.: come on! If Psypoke doesn't let you use that word (P-word), then why do you?


Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:51 pm
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torchie13125 wrote:
As for religion, I'm still anti-abortionist, and not even a gogol dollars are going to get my view changed!


I, an atheist, can see your point in being against abortion. Because it can be viewed as killing a person. Regardless that it isn't. You are a girl like myself so I ask you this, if you were raped and became pregnant, would you want to keep the child? I wouldn't think so. Let's say it happened when you were 16. If you kept the kid, school sure would be hard. Aside from the aspects of life that having a kid young would ruin, that child would be a constant reminder of the rape insident.

Ofcoarse, the above scenario wouldn't happen that common. I can think of many other scenarios that one would not want a child.

Since I can see both sides arguements, I think abortion should be left as a choice a woman can make. If she doesn't want the child for whatever reason, we are in absolutely no position to tell her she cannot get an abortion. Besides, it is better for the child to never be born that to live a terrible, miserable life.

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Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:08 am
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I see your point, Azure, but still... Sorry if my post was a little on the long side. I just got chewed out by Anamator for spamming (I saw my mistake as soon as I posted it and deleted it. I didn't think that Anamator'd be that mad) Anyway, I won't be doing that, as my sig now says to look at my thing. I got this from one of my Sunday School teachers: "A person is alive from the moment of conception. That life is so precious, so innocent, that we, young adults and adults alike, must learn to be like a baby, as they don't know what evil is." So, if a person is alive from the moment of conception, is it right to kill a baby? Can you call that hiding a woman's shame and disgust? I call that murder , not abortion. Babies that die unborn don't get a chance at life, like we do. I'll take your case for an example. I admit that I'd not want to keep the baby. However, I still want to give birth to him or her. Then I'd either let my parents take care of him or her, or, in an extreme case, put him or her up for adoption. That way, the baby can at least have a little chance before going to see God. Whew! This is why I love this discussion! It makes me all heated up on a Sunday, right after church too! I needed that, and now, back to homework :( *closes laptop*


Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:34 am
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torchie13125 wrote:
P.S.: Was I a bit too sentimental? Most of the rating stuff that's by me is really from my brother! He begs me to do it for him, and he's just too lazy to join Psypoke himself!
~torchie13125
P.P.S.: come on! If Psypoke doesn't let you use that word (P-word), then why do you?

I don't think there's a Psypoke. There's Jiggz and the Mods, but no actual Psypoke. After all, this is not S-e-r-e-b-i-i. Now, why are we debating abortion here? Go make your own abortion thread and post in it! [/rant]

Now back on topic. I think that God made the Earth, but maybe the seven days was more like a couple eons. After all, it's a planet. It can't just come out of nowhere.

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Wow... I shouldn't have answered Azure in the first place... Thanks a lot! ( :( ) Anyway, yeah, you're right on one thing, Steel_Eel. The Bible says that God made the whole universe in 7 days, but some people in my religion (it's Catholic!), such as me, believe that those 7 days were like... what you said, eons. Well, I think that 1 day=100 years. I might be strict about some topics (like abortion), but I'm pretty lenient on things like this. I think that It might even be 1 day= 1 million years, but that's just me, as I'm trying to fit in modern science into religion at the same time here. (Ugh! For future reference, don't! As another Sunday School teacher told me (last year's teacher), "Science and religion are enemies in one sense, but friends in another." Confusing, isn't it? I found what Elie Wiesel (author of Night ) said about this too. He said, and I'm paraphrasing at the moment, "Science and religion cannot go together.")
I'll edit one day if I remember the quote word for word. Ignore the post up there. If I can delete that, I'll do it right now!
EDIT: I can't delete it! ( Insert swear word !) Anyway, if some of you can't ignore it, well, the page that sort of also backs me up is: http://www.catholic.com/library/Abortion.asp It's pretty neat. Even though it was technically written for Catholics only, I think it appeals to non-Catholics as well. Hope you won't be offended!
~torchie13125


Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:05 pm
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Steel_Eel wrote:
I don't think there's a Psypoke. There's Jiggz and the Mods, but no actual Psypoke. After all, this is not S-e-r-e-b-i-i. Now, why are we debating abortion here? Go make your own abortion thread and post in it! [/rant]

Now back on topic. I think that God made the Earth, but maybe the seven days was more like a couple eons. After all, it's a planet. It can't just come out of nowhere.


I can see how you would think abortion is a little off topic. But we are discussing religion. Abortion is a matter closely tied with religion. Just like going to church on sundays or not eating certain things etc.

Anywho, the whole religon vs. science thing is an old battle. It is hard for the two to co-exist, not impossible. For instance, one could believe in the big bang theory, but they could believe god made the big bang.

Personally, I think religion is a made up answer to something that has yet to be solved. An answer blown way out of proportion. Think about it. When there is something you wonder, you want to know the answer. You may spend a long time thinking about it. And when you come to an answer, you are glad. So the way I see it is that people wanted to know stuff like how was Earth made? or how life came to be? Some guy came along and made up religion. Hense why there are so many different religions. Different versions of the same answer.

Over the years people came to believe in these "answers" deeply. So when something, like science comes along and threatens to prove that the "answer" they believed in for so long is wrong, people don't like it.

In the past spring I wrote an essay called "Religion. A Love Story?" That essay won an award for "Best persuasive essay". The last line in that essay is "You cannot believe without lie.

I do not hate religion, I actually kinda like it. It was a truly magnificent thing until some bad people came along and ruined it. They turned it into a sorce of global hatred and hurt. I think we all have it wrong, whether there is a god or not. Before there are replies saying stuff like "what about this" etc. I want you to know that believing religion is totally cool with me. And I am sure that the points you have to argue mine are valid. Sure I have nothing to really prove science, but you have no proof of religion either. Who knows? Maybe we are both wrong.

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Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:42 pm
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You won an award? Cool! (Sorry! Off-topic)
On topic, I think I'm a moderate Catholic leaning toward the conservative side. Why? Well, most of the extracurricular activities, excluding clubs, are done at my church, I get crazy when I overhear someone talking about abortion or the altar server molesting thing (I'm still shocked, and I'm supposed to know what happened, as I'm Catholic) and well, I also don't eat meat (none at all, not even fish, which is allowed these days) on Fridays during Lent, and I go to Mass daily (at least twice a week, as I don't have a lot of time right now, as I'm a juior at high school). The moderate side of me is that I don't think that God strictly made everything in this world (gasp!) Some were indeed created by the process of evolution. Trust me, I love science (I want to be a meteorologist when I grow up) and I think religion+science together isn't that bad, even though some people say it's impossible. Yeah, it's hard sometimes, trying to explain stuff logically while knowing what happened (Church style). So I want to make a point here. Science may be an enemy of religion, but it can also be religion's friend too. If scientists embrace religion at the same time, then they'd understand the meaning of life.
EDIT: I meant the site. When I was putting the whole word in, it went like * x 5. So, I mean, that is enough evidence that you shouldn't use that word. Anyway, on a more related subject... NVM. I've said enough for right now.


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I have done much research into various religions, and one thing still puzzles me. How do they know what happened? How can they be sure <insert god here> made the universe? Some people I ask say that they talked to <insert god here> which is how they know. But, drug addicts and psychos hear voices too. Why would <insert god here> talk to one person and not the next? I thought religion was all about fariness, that isn't fair.

As I said before, religion doesn't really offend me. Just some aspects of religion offend me. Like when people tell me that I am going to hell because I am not christian, I kinda want to punch them in the face. Or when people try to shove there beliefs down my throat, I want to punch them for being so close-minded and rude. Some individual religions offend me. Like the muslim extremists. They really offend me. Not only are they racist to every other race, they are upseenly sexist towards women and the are just plain f***ing crazy. Seriously though "If I blow up that building full of innocent people, Alla will give me 40 virgins" I lol'd at the thought of that statement. Other than that, no ther religions offend me as a whole.

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Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:08 am
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Like the muslim extremists. They really offend me. Not only are they racist to every other race, they are upseenly sexist towards women and the are just plain f***ing crazy. Seriously though "If I blow up that building full of innocent people, Alla will give me 40 virgins" I lol'd at the thought of that statement.

actually, it's 72 virgins ;)

and if you think that Islam actually teaches that doing that sort of thing is right, then no offence, but I don't hold to much stock in your "I've donw much research into many religions" statement there.

and yes, you said that Islamic extremists offend you, but remember it was an example of your "individual religions offend me" statement.


Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:32 am
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Trust me, I know Islam does not teach people to go blow up stuff. It is just some bad people that say Alla wants you too. Just like how churchs burned books and sicouraged people from learning in the past. Doesn't say anything about no learning in the bible, it is just that some guy twisted things up.

Zombie wrote:
and yes, you said that Islamic extremists offend you, but remember it was an example of your "individual religions offend me" statement.


Islam is the only individual religion that offends me. No other religion is entirely offensive, just some aspects of other religions offend me.

Zombie wrote:
actually, it's 72 virgins


I will remember that next time :)

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Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:41 am
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but you're offended by things it doesn't teach. so how is it Islam that offends you? surely you must mean it's Arabs who offend you.


Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:54 am
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Okay, it is a little hard to explain. Yes Arabs do offend me, but so does Islam. But here is a epic long post.

Islam literally means "Submission to God". Muslims (a Islam believing person) belive that the purpose of life is to worship god (Allah). Muslims make up approximetely 23% of the world. Making it the second largest religion and pretty much the fastest growing.

Muslims follow Sharia law. Which is the expression of the divine will. I will be explaining parts of this law that I do not like in the next few statements.

1. Muslims only eat/shake hands/etc. with their right hand. Why? Because they wipe their a** with the left one. We have toilet paper now, use it.
2. Muslims have restrcited diets. (Not alcohol, pork, blood, and a few more). Quite a few religions have similar things. I just find it ridiculous.

The above do not really offend me. The bellow actually offend me.

3. Muslim men are allowed 4 wives. This offends me because a woman can only have 1 husband, but a man can have 4 wives.
4. Misyar, a form of muslim marriage, gives the wife little freedom and no requirments for the husband to give financial support. Offensive because it is sexist.
5. Muslims can only marry other muslims. Racist
6. A muslim girl needs her fathers permission to get married. The father also chooses the husband.
7. In a few areas, no consultation with the wife is needed for a divorce. Also the wife cannot choose to divorce. (Only in extreme situations).

While those things that are actually in Sharia offend me, there are things that are done that are nnot in Sharia or the Qu'ran that offend me.

8. A few months ago a boy and girl were caught holding hands in a mall. The girl was stoned to death and nothing happened to the boy
9. The Taliban makes it so girls cannot attend school. Mind you, they make it hard for boys to go too.
10. The entire concept of the Burqa is offensive. Although it does not say anywhere in the Qu'ran to wear a Burqa (It only says to dress modestly) it is still offensive that women have to cover up so the men will not be sexually attracted. The men should just learn to not be such pigs.

As you can see, it is not just the Islam religion that offends me. Things that Islam extremists do offend me too. But what offended me more than anything else was when the canadian muslim comunnity wanted to have Sharia law in a country they just came to.

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Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:02 am
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