haha, yes I was pretty surprised about that too maybe not much hope for mankind, but definitely some for Psypokes


well let me talk about some of God's names in Islam, amongst them are "khalek" (creator), "wahhab" (bestower), "razeq" (prosperor). the names of God are generally the qualities of God, and there are about a hundred names. let's look at the ones I posted: Creator, angels cannot create, and all religions believe that angels were created by God. Bestower, Angels bestow nothing amongst mankind, even when Gabriel brought the versus of the Quran down to the prophet, he was merely a messenger from God. Prosperor, Angels cannot bring prosperity to anyone.


the truth is that people are gonna fight wars no matter what, I don't think it's fair to blame religion for human behavior (I know you weren't doing that). on the other hand, let's look at the many wars the islamic pioneers fought....sure people were killed in these wars, but what was the end result? a union of the Arab world. which defintely not a bad thing because lots of squabbles were going on between the different small Arabic tribes.

Well, my outlook of Religion in general is that all religions are BS in 1 way or another & that no matter which 1 you pick, it doesn't really impact what will happen to you after you die...that being said, I decided before I turned 18 that I was going to stay Christian when I did turn 18 but not really dedicate myself to the religion as a notable amount of it constantly leaves me questioning where the lines are & who is it really that gets to decide what sends you to hell & what not...I mean sometimes people are put in circumstances that force them to do the wrong thing, do these people still go to hell or whatever when they die because of something like this or what about the uninformed...do they get a chance to learn right from wrong? I think not on that last 1...

This being said, I have my own beliefs about the time after death & most likely do not believe in Hell as it is called but do believe in Heaven & think that people just go to a place that is like their own personal vision of paradise unless they are just pure evil then they I guess would either not get the privilage of an afterlife or go to this Hell place then...

This is a touchy topic for me only because I don't really have any respect for Religion in general, just seems like a tool that is used to help keep society in check or at least as much in check as it can be kept in, basically I am saying that I think it is nothing more then another government or something to that effect...meh...

Personally I am an Atheist. I wrote a wonderful award-winning essay about how the is no way religion is real. But I actually think religion is wonderful.....in theory. Many things are nice in theory, like capitalism, but in reality, they are not so good.

Some people really need to think that after they die, they're not just dead. But that there is an after life of sorts. Which is fine by me. It is a little depressing thinking that once you die, its done. Some people just like to think that they will one day, be rewarded by their acts of kindness, which is quite a good system.

In theory, Religion is good because it rewards those who are kind and good, and punishes those who are bad. It teaches people to love thy neighboor and so forth.

It also tells that everyone is equal. In reality we know this is very wrong. Christianity, for axample, descriminates against gays, and basically everyone who isn't christian. Extreme Muslims descriminate harshly against women.

Religion is also terribal in that it is the sole cause for much bloodshed. Think of the Afghan war, riots in Ireland, and many other wars. Without religion, a lot less blood would have been shed, and people would actually love eachother, like religion tells us too. Think about it, a huge reason why a group of people hates another is religion. Sure there are other relasons for hatred in our world, but religion is a big one.

I am personally not against religion at all. I do not dislike people who belive in a religion, I just do not like people who discriminate against others for not being in that religion aswell as people who try to crame their religion down others throats.

[color=#8040FF]I am a proud Christian. I have been all my life and will continue so until I die. When I discuss religion with someone I like to bring up St. Thomas Aquinas's five intellectual proofs that there is a God, which I will copy and paste here.

St. Thomas Aquinas five proofs of the existence of God

Aquinas

ooh, I'd like to add to what ST was saying with a story I heard in religion class. there was a Muslim scholar, can't remember his name, but anyway, he was invited by a group of Athiests to come and debate with them about the exsistance of God, they lived on an island, so it took him a while to find a boat to get him there, when he finally did, they asked him what took him so long, he said that there were no boats to be found, so they asked him how he managed to get there, he said that luckily a tree suddenly chopped it'self into lumber and assembled it's self into a boar which he used to come in. they were angry and asked him if he took them for fools, "how can you say that a boat assembles itself from nothing?" they asked him. "and how can you say that this world came to be without a creator?" he replied.

No offence, but Aquinas's proofs aren't that solid (but I can see why you like them), despite not being a Christian myself, the best proof I've found is called the ontological argument, although still fallible, not as easily so, and even if it seems easily disprovable that proof is hard to put into words. It manifests itself through a series of logical steps starting with this statement:

Nothing is greater than God =>

Even if God doesn't exist, you can still think he exists =>

An entity is greater if it exists than if it does not =>

Therefore, God existing is greater than the thought of him, and nothing is greater than God so...

God must exist!

Anyways, that was that. Also, if you can, try reading about the Nostic Gospels and the origins of the church; its very interesting although some of it can undermine your faith a bit, so stay strong.

ST I read your post and can see why you are fond of those "proofs", I quite like how they incorporate science aswell. I am very respectful of your stand on this topic, and I understand that religion makes you act in kindness, like it does for most whcih is why I think religion wasn't a bad idea. I may not believe in a divine punishment for acts of evil but that does not mean I am free to do whatever.

Anyway, I think it is a large stretch to say that the points St.Thomas Aquinas braught up are proof. All five of them have alternative reasons that have absolutely no realaiton do a divine being. But I am in no position to take your time just to bash five things you seem to agree with. Aswell as you claim to respect your friends Atheist veiws, I shall respect your veiws in saying that the peice of text you posted seems quite logical and the whole concept of religion is admirable. It is just unfortunate that over time, a small amount of people have done terrible things in the name of God, no matter which God. Those acts of undescribable evil have, to some people, given religion a bad name. If there is a hell, ';m sure some people that thought they were doing what God wanted have ended up there.

actually intent of the Crusades was to kill non Christians......it's a shame we pwned your faces Salah Al-Deen Al-Ayobi is one of my all time heroes.

(pwned faces thing was a joke)

but if I know my history correctly.....and I probably don't...I thought that the Christians used to excecute masses of Jews back in that time :S I know the Church used to do that at some point in time...

Yes, when i remembered it because in England, after the Crusades, most Jews become role player of the government economy as a payment for the king to protect them. But because they became the role economy player (e.g. Debt Collector, maybe) most people in England hate them. And because most England was Christian, people thinks that the Christians hated The Jews. But they don't know that every money that The Jews has WILL be directly given to the king as the payment of the protection.

Although that may be true in part, the main reason Jews became bank managers, and issuing out loans, is because at that time, it was against Christian ruling across Europe for any Christian to profit from a loan and receive interest. Therefore no Christian could afford to give out loans for free, and many Jews filled this gap in the market, giving them the image of money-grabbers. There was also alot of Christian/Jewish conflict before the crusades and many pogroms were committed by Christians in central Europe on their way to the crusades. Also the Holy land was only given to the Jews after WW2 which has been the cause of alot of conflict since

I could not stop laughing after I read this, because my uncle is both English and Jewish.
And the reason many Jewish people are bankers and Doctors and other professions that are coinsidered important is that we value education. Not that other religions and peoples don't value education, because they do.

The intent of the first crusade was to return the Jewish homeland to the jews. However, somewhere along the line of command the orders got "changed", and that why hundreds of thousands of jews were killed in the first crusade. However the second and third crusades were headed by the corrupted medieval papacy and the intent of those two crusades were to slaughter people. Again though the original orders were supposedly to put down a rebellion in the Jewish homeland, but there is no historic evidence that their were any riots/rebellions occurring at that time, you can decide for yourself what the true intent was.

The reason why Jewish people are stereo typed as greedy us due to the Catholic papacy banning Jewish people from having a job other than one in loans, banking, and finance. This is due to a christian/catholic law where you couldn't get a loan from another christian/catholic. However, because there weren't any laws forcing the christians to pay their debts animosity developed between the two religions.

Just my two cents...

well actually, in the Islamic nations there were no such limitations on Jewish people, yet in the stories I read about the situations between the prophet and his companions with Jewish traders, they were portrayed as greedy as well....now these aren't just stories made up to make Jews look bad, it's Sunnah, and Sunnah can't be forged or altered, or lied about...so please no accusations of that. it's weird that Jews would be thought of in the same way in two places that are so far apart.

Not really.

Discussing religion is annoying.

Yeah, it sometimes annoying if you don't tolerate other people and turn the thread into a debate, but if we are toughtful and respectful, it won't be so bad. Still remembered the last thread that discuss religion turned into a hard debate.

EDIT: 250th post.

This is my view on it generally:

I to am a muslim. This religion, any religon really is good in whole but humans are not perfect and they execute the ideas radically. people on the news are always blaming the religion for this mayhem but really it the people.

/thread


but religion is a product of humanity

and without people there is no religion


tru dat. I find that even most atheists are pretty annoying to listen to. especially the ones who try to disprove religion using science when they only studied high school chemistry.


I'm no expert in early medieval history, but this sounds... spurious.

well first of all, the thing about Religion being the product of humanity is very debatable, and saying that in such a matter-of-factly way makes you come across as ignorant, so try to stay away from doing that in arguments.

and what Darktrainer was saying was that people are blaming the religion for the things that Muslims are doing, and you argue that religion is a product of those human, ergo, their accusations are justified. well let's assume that yes, the religion is indeed a product of humanity, that doesn't change anything, the original scriptures forbid this sort of behaviour, therefore these radicalists by my definition, aren't really Muslims.

Jewish.And athiest.For me,science>religion.